Primes

[zombiehands]

I am kind of a lurker here and on dragonsfoots forums page an I know people ask questions all the time about Primes but I have couple questions.

1) Has anyone re-balanced humans so all races can have 3 primes? since humans monsters have 3 primes it would seem more symetrical statising to me if everyon does.

2) Has anyone added a flat bonus to primes rather then use different target levels. Say maybe a +2 so if you have a 18 STR and its prime you get a +5 modifier. you could use a 15 as target number for all rolls. Would it cause to much power creep or make primes less signifcant?

[Fizz]

Hey Zombie- welcome to the boards!

zombiehands wrote:
1) Has anyone re-balanced humans so all races can have 3 primes? since humans monsters have 3 primes it would seem more symetrical statising to me if everyon does.

I don't give all races 3 primes, but i did find it odd that monsters effectively do (the P/M save set). Given the importance of primes, i explicitely spell out the primes for each monster. The number they get is dependent on their monster type. Oozes, for example, get none. Dragons get 3. Most monsters get 2.

I wouldn't give other races 3 primes because then humans would have no advantages at all.

[qoute]2) Has anyone added a flat bonus to primes rather then use different target levels. Say maybe a +2 so if you have a 18 STR and its prime you get a +5 modifier. you could use a 15 as target number for all rolls. Would it cause to much power creep or make primes less signifcant?[/quote]

I know some people here do use a flat modifier. Some people keep it at +6 (the difference between a CB 12 and 18), while others lower it.

I think the +6 is appropriate. The standard deviation of a 1d20 is about 6.1. So the difference of +6 has some real statistical meaning.

Your proposed +2 would greatly reduce the importance of primes. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just be aware of what it does.

I don't think you'd have to worry about power creep. The +2 is less potent than +6, obviously, but you've reduced the CB to 15 for everything, so it'd more or less even out i think.

In short, i think it's workable without hurting the game any.

-Fizz

[zombiehands]

Fizz wrote:
Hey Zombie- welcome to the boards!


I don't give all races 3 primes, but i did find it odd that monsters effectively do (the P/M save set). Given the importance of primes, i explicitely spell out the primes for each monster. The number they get is dependent on their monster type. Oozes, for example, get none. Dragons get 3. Most monsters get 2.

I wouldn't give other races 3 primes because then humans would have no advantages at all.

[qoute]2) Has anyone added a flat bonus to primes rather then use different target levels. Say maybe a +2 so if you have a 18 STR and its prime you get a +5 modifier. you could use a 15 as target number for all rolls. Would it cause to much power creep or make primes less signifcant?

I know some people here do use a flat modifier. Some people keep it at +6 (the difference between a CB 12 and 18), while others lower it.

I think the +6 is appropriate. The standard deviation of a 1d20 is about 6.1. So the difference of +6 has some real statistical meaning.

Your proposed +2 would greatly reduce the importance of primes. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just be aware of what it does.

I don't think you'd have to worry about power creep. The +2 is less potent than +6, obviously, but you've reduced the CB to 15 for everything, so it'd more or less even out i think.

In short, i think it's workable without hurting the game any.

-Fizz[/quote]

I wasn't saying give all race 3 abilities and not to give humans another ability to balance them. I just can't really think of a advanatge to give them. Maybe a +2 ability modieifer to any one ability score?

The +2 would not be just to checks but to the modifier. A con prime with a 10 con would ad +2 to HD roll, or a STR prime with a STR of 18 give a +5 to hit/damage instead of a +3.

[CharlieRock]

While I like the idea of listing the primes for all the bad guys, it's just too much work.
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[Fizz]

zombiehands wrote:
I wasn't saying give all race 3 abilities and not to give humans another ability to balance them. I just can't really think of a advanatge to give them. Maybe a +2 ability modieifer to any one ability score?

The +2 would not be just to checks but to the modifier. A con prime with a 10 con would ad +2 to HD roll, or a STR prime with a STR of 18 give a +5 to hit/damage instead of a +3.

So, basically a +2 to anything having to do with that attribute... kind of a pseudo prime. I'd think that would help, but i don't think overall it's as potent as the advantage of having an extra prime.

I don't think it'll break the system, just be aware of the repurcusions. If you like it and your players are happy with it, that's what counts.

-Fizz

[Fizz]

CharlieRock wrote:
While I like the idea of listing the primes for all the bad guys, it's just too much work.

Actually, i find it to be an easy tweak. I just do it on the fly. I just base it off description. IE, most orcs would be Str/Con prime. Most fey are Dex/Cha. Etc etc. But, like pcs, the primes may vary.

-Fizz

[Treebore]

Fizz wrote:
Actually, i find it to be an easy tweak. I just do it on the fly. I just base it off description. IE, most orcs would be Str/Con prime. Most fey are Dex/Cha. Etc etc. But, like pcs, the primes may vary.

-Fizz

Very true. I couldn't handle them saying Orcs got DEX as Prime, I never pictured Orcs as dextrous. Just big hulking meat shields that could take a beating and keep on dishing out a beating.

To start with I think going with the "P=Physical" and "M=Mental" is a good idea, but if you ever get to a point where you want to fine tune things a bit, its pretty easy to do.
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[csperkins1970]

zombiehands wrote:
I am kind of a lurker here and on dragonsfoots forums page an I know people ask questions all the time about Primes but I have couple questions.

1) Has anyone re-balanced humans so all races can have 3 primes? since humans monsters have 3 primes it would seem more symetrical statising to me if everyon does.

I haven't but you could do this:

All races get 3 Primes. The bonus for Primes, however, would be greater for humans than for any other race.

Normally primes amount to a +6 bonus each. For humans, however, each prime would grant a +8 bonus, changing the 12/18 Challenge Base to a 10/18 Challenge Base for humans.

zombiehands wrote:
2) Has anyone added a flat bonus to primes rather then use different target levels. Say maybe a +2 so if you have a 18 STR and its prime you get a +5 modifier. you could use a 15 as target number for all rolls. Would it cause to much power creep or make primes less signifcant?

That's exactly what I do. The Challenge Base is 15 and Primes give a +5 bonus to related attribute checks.

[adaen]

The prospect of giving 3 primes to all races (with the caveat of humans getting a larger bonus for their primes) seems like a very good idea. It also helps out with the "Ranger Problem" (their skills comprise three stats, making an elven ranger a poorer choice fthan a human ranger).

Since I use the TriDie (median of 3 d20's), +3 for non-humans and +5 for humans would work best for primes (as the Standard Deviation is quite a bit smaller with the TriDie). Thanks.

~AoB
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[phadeout]

CharlieRock wrote:
While I like the idea of listing the primes for all the bad guys, it's just too much work.

I actually wish they had did the little extra effort to add Primes to each monster on the basis that most monster should have:

5 Primes (extremely powerful, Dragons, maybe greater demons)

4 Primes (very powerful, like Liches, Beholders etc)

3 Primes (quite powerful, needs more abilities to balance it/make it interesting, etc)

2 Primes (most everything else)

1 Prime (very week or mindless things - Skeletons, Small Ooze, etc)

It would not take more than 8-12 hours to go through M&T (thoroughly) and do this for each monster, and maybe 4 hours to layout some rules for different types and what they should be. Most can be done VERY quickly.

Of course then you need to set aside 200 Hours to deal with the bickering between peers
It could also be done by Creature type, with exceptions made for some creatures (just to make things easier, and to give a guideline for conversions). And, some creatures may just have 1, 2, or even ALL primes as open to the DM to choose - usually for more unique and intelligent monsters.

i.e.

Animals would have Dex/Wis Prime if Small, Con/Wis Medium, Str/Con if Large

Giants would have Str/Con

Humanoids would have the most variation and be a general call based on the humanoids background, but most Goblinoids would have Str/Con or Con/Dex if Small.

I don't like how monsters currently have 3 or 6 Primes... and no variation between those that have 3 (mental or physical). Yes it's easier, but really, seeing how important Primes are, and how easy they are to assign, it would be nice to have individual Primes for monsters.

It also give monsters "weaknesses" that are more specific and interesting.

Like Gold Dragon's maybe have Prime Charisma, but Red Dragons don't...
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[gideon_thorne]

phadeout wrote:
I actually wish they had did the little extra effort to add Primes to each monster on the basis that most monster should have:

I don't like how monsters currently have 3 or 6 Primes... and no variation between those that have 3 (mental or physical). Yes it's easier, but really, seeing how important Primes are, and how easy they are to assign, it would be nice to have individual Primes for monsters.

And the reasoning behind it was, so other folks could come along and add this stuff if they want too.

C&C followed the Keep it Simple philosophy entirely for the purpose of people being able to add complexity if they wanted.
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[phadeout]

I understand the keep it simple thing (my main rule as an IT admin, KISS principle).

I guess I just think individual monster primes would have been "neat".
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[adaen]

gideon_thorne wrote:
And the reasoning behind it was, so other folks could come along and add this stuff if they want too.

C&C followed the Keep it Simple philosophy entirely for the purpose of people being able to add complexity if they wanted.

And to that, we all say "Bravo!".....again.

Thanks,

~AoB
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