Feats and C&C

[daddystabz]

I am pretty sure I am going to use feats in C&C. I have a list of feats someone put together that I will use for C&C and I am thinking of allowing players in my upcoming Conan rpg campaign to choose feats from the Mongoose Conan sourcebook. However, I'm pretty sure I will have to convert some of these feats into C&C terms.

Have any of you used feats in your C&C campaigns and if so, what adjustments do you normally make to them to make them good for C&C? Or do you usually just allow them as-is?

Thanks in advance!
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[Skywalker]

daddystabz wrote:
I am pretty sure I am going to use feats in C&C. I have a list of feats someone put together that I will use for C&C and I am thinking of allowing players in my upcoming Conan rpg campaign to choose feats from the Mongoose Conan sourcebook. However, I'm pretty sure I will have to convert some of these feats into C&C terms.

Have any of you used feats in your C&C campaigns and if so, what adjustments do you normally make to them to make them good for C&C? Or do you usually just allow them as-is?

Thanks in advance!

If you don't mind me asking, if you are going to use C&C for a more simplified D20 but retain feats, wouldn't it be easier to strip back Conan OGL than rebuild a new game from the ground up?

[serleran]

As with all things d20, if it involves a bonus, either reduce it by half (or more, depending on how significant the bonus is,) or do not allow it, depending on what the feat/thing does. I find that many feats work best by simply allowing a SIEGE check (with level) to perform, rather than making it an automatic thing, but I like the "you can try, not always succeed" way of playing. I'd also make them cost XP, and not be automatic "freebies" that everyone got, since you'd then be back in the boat of "what feats do these monsters get?"

Many times, I discover that in adding something as dramatic as feats, one ends up adding back in all that unnecessary complexity, too.

[gideon_thorne]

I don't see any need to add feats and all that complexity. If someone wants to accomplish an action that seems 'feat' like, I just assign a modifier to the roll or some penalty elsewhere
Something like Cleave, for example, as I recall, adds extra damage to the attack. A player, telling me beforehand, that they want to apply some extra smash to their attack they can have several options. A minus, equal to the amount of extra damage they wish to cause, to their attack roll, or perhaps a minus to their AC. Some sort of penalty for the trade off, in short.

This way, the game becomes a system of creative player strategy, not just a line of numbers and spread sheet of abilities.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Matthew]

Nah, in D20 Cleave gives you an extra attack, if you kill the first opponent.
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[daddystabz]

Skywalker wrote:
If you don't mind me asking, if you are going to use C&C for a more simplified D20 but retain feats, wouldn't it be easier to strip back Conan OGL than rebuild a new game from the ground up?

That is something I have been considering actually. I have been actually considering using the core mechanics of Star Wars Saga Edition as the core of the game instead of C&C. I simply love the mechanics of saga and it would make using feats from the Conan books easy and would require almost no tweaking at all. In addition, using the way Saga handles skills would make things VERY easy too.

However, using feats is not all that uncommon for a C&C campaign. I know many people that allow their players to use feats. Even some allow some sort of skill system but with skills then you wouldn't need the SIEGE engine really.
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[gideon_thorne]

Matthew wrote:
Nah, in D20 Cleave gives you an extra attack, if you kill the first opponent.

Eh.. still same premise, negative modifier to the roll. In this case, it would be per number of opponents and a progressive negative modifier to the to hit roll.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Skywalker]

daddystabz wrote:
That is something I have been considering actually. I have been actually considering using the core mechanics of Star Wars Saga Edition as the core of the game instead of C&C. I simply love the mechanics of saga and it would make using feats from the Conan books easy and would require almost no tweaking at all. In addition, using the way Saga handles skills would make things VERY easy too.

However, using feats is not all that uncommon for a C&C campaign. I know many people that allow their players to use feats. Even some allow some sort of skill system but with skills then you wouldn't need the SIEGE engine really.

The core mechanics of Star Wars Saga, C&C and Conan are all the same. Its how the bits are applied that differs. That is why I think it sounds easier starting with Conan and reducing it down than starting with Star Wars Saga or C&C and building them up.

- Changing Conan's skill system to a Saga version is simple. Simply turn the number of class skills into trained skills and add a Skill Training and Skill Focus feat.

- For combat, just adopt Saga's easier definitions of AoO, its cover rules etc.

- If you want to drop skills for C&C's attribute checks, it would be easier to start with Conan OGL and simply strip out skills by simply grouping them by the governing attribute. Simply apply mods more broadly or keep them the same.

[daddystabz]

Your way of thinking is EXACTLY where I am right now in my thinking process. I am right now looking at how I will handle creatures from the Conan bestiary.
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[Turanil]

[Rant Mode] Using feats in C&C: I find tiring that when someone posts a desire to add various things to his C&C game (and thus asks how others could have already done it, to ease his work), there is always someone or another to tell him that it's kinda like a stupid idea, that's useless, and that C&C is better as is and not changed. [/Rant Mode]
About using SAGA SW for fantasy: I remember there has been a fantasy conversion of saga made and posted in the d20 forum (I think) of ENworld. It might be worth checking.
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[daddystabz]

One of the main selling points of C&C and frankly one of my fave things about it is that it encourages house ruling and adding new ideas to it ad hoc. I have seen several people add things like feats, skills, etc. to the game and I'm frankly suprised at some of the reaction I'm getting because I had thought about allowing for feats myself. Even my C&C old school friend, Treebore, allows for feats in some of his games but not in the standard way. His players have to attempt the feat as a SIEGE check first and after they successfully accomplish the net result of the feat as a SIEGE check so many times in the course of a campaign they can add that particular feat to their repertoire.

I like to bounce ideas off others because I do not have a monopoly on good ideas. I didn't think people in the forum would have a real problem with that.

If anyone finds a link to a fantasy version of saga edition PLEASE link me to it. I would GREATLY appreciate it.
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[gideon_thorne]

Turanil wrote:
[Rant Mode] Using feats in C&C: I find tiring that when someone posts a desire to add various things to his C&C game (and thus asks how others could have already done it, to ease his work), there is always someone or another to tell him that it's kinda like a stupid idea, that's useless, and that C&C is better as is and not changed. [/Rant Mode]

Well, I don't see that going on in this thread. Just suggestions on how to do something feat like, without feats.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Fizz]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well, I don't see that going on in this thread. Just suggestions on how to do something feat like, without feats.

I agree. My players have been using `feats' long before 3E ever came out. I had players try things like `whirlwind attack' when surrounded by foes, and success was based on some kind of check or attack roll. I had a dwarf `bull rush' a daemon over a cliff, again another check. Neither were called that, of course, being pre-3E. But the effects were essentially the same.

One of the great things about C&C is indeed that it's easy to add rules and complications as you desire. However, another great thing is the Siege Engine itself, which enables all sorts of crazy actions to be attempted- what can be tried is mostly limited by the players imagination.

Some people (including me) see 3E feats as contradictory to the spirit of the Siege engine. "You can't do it if you don't have the feat" is the 3E mantra. Conversely, in C&C it is "you can try to do anything".

So when people suggest the Siege as an alternative, they're showing you how something can be done to emulate said feat, without the limitations that 3E style feats cause.

After all, it's the cool manuevers that players want to try. Whether it's called a `feat' or a `Siege check' ought to be irrelevent.

-Fizz

[Treebore]

I see the requirement of having to have a feat in order to do it as contradictory to the "spirit of the SIEGE engine", but as Daddystabz pointed out, my system incorporates the "you can attempt to do anything" of the SIEGE engine, but if you do it successfully often enough you earn a "feat" to no longer have to make a SIEGE check.

So feats can definitely be adapted in ways that still maintain the "spirit of the SIEGE engine". At least in my opinion.
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[Skywalker]

daddystabz wrote:
If anyone finds a link to a fantasy version of saga edition PLEASE link me to it. I would GREATLY appreciate it.

Here is the site: http://www.gneech.com/swordandsorcery/index.html

[daddystabz]

I found Gneech on my own earlier and am checking it out currently. It looks to be EXACTLY what I was looking for. What a fantastic jon he did! Thanks for the link.
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[Joe]

Treebore,

So how many times do you require a SIEGE check before you grant them that ability?

I am thinking of adding the same thing to my homebrew game.

[Treebore]

Joe wrote:
Treebore,

So how many times do you require a SIEGE check before you grant them that ability?

I am thinking of adding the same thing to my homebrew game.

Well, its really how many times do you think it needs to happen for you to feel they have "learned it"?

I would recommend starting with the range of 20 to 30 successes. It can actually take a good while for this to happen. In my case everyone rarely does such SIEGE checks, until just the last few weeks. Now a couple of players seem to really be trying out this aspect of my house rules.

As it is it took 7 to 8 levels for any of my players to have their character earn any such "powers".
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Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[Joe]

Wow...that seems a lot!

I was thinking more along the line of 10, but I can see more for complex stuff.

[Treebore]

Joe wrote:
Wow...that seems a lot!

I was thinking more along the line of 10, but I can see more for complex stuff.

Yep, its definitely open to what you think is appropriate.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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