Undead turning/cowering questions for my fellow CKs

Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:37 am

Hello fellows.

This situation/questions came up recently in my AD&D game. Those rules are not perfectly clear on this. So I was wondering about C&C which has a little more elaboration, but some open interpretation.

I have some thoughts but would be pleased and curious to hear your replies:

A couple of undead have been turned - they go 10 feet or so and are at a chasm.

First: Do they proceed forward into the chasm per turned undead fleeing rules? In this case, they were zombies - mindless.

Second: So if a CK were to say, they would stop and not hurl themselves into the abyss, would they then be cowering??

Thanks, most appreciated.
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Coleston the Cavalier · Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:56 am

I'm no expert, but I'd have mindless undead run away and fall right over.

I think cunning undead would cower at the edge.

Very intelligent undead would just come back to the party for more.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:32 am

Because I like Undead, they would instinctually not cower and turn around, the turn broken. Or, they'd just go in... and climb back up. Broken bones and so forth do not a zombie kill.

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:37 am

Sounds like a cowering situation to me.

They've gone as far as they can go without committing suicide, just as players affected by fear wouldn't.

just my take

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:40 am

Hmm, now that I've had a chance to grab a cookie and think it over, I'm not sure...

BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:55 am

Mindless Undead? I'd say they'd go until they fall.

If a Necromancer ordered a Zombie into a situation where it would be destroyed(such as entering a fiery inferno),it would still go. IMHO a Zombie doesnt think about self preservation. If Zombies spotted a potential victim on the other side of a pit, they'd try to attack(falling in the pit). They are mindless.....

Just my thought though.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:29 pm

Mindless |= completely without instinct. Animals are mindless, as in, unintelligent. Zombies are much like dogs. Imagine the most idiotic puppy you've ever seen... and make it want to eat your flesh. That is what a zombie is like.

BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:32 pm

I think "mindless" is even a step below "animal". I don't think mindless Undead have any "instincts" except slay the living. You can teach a dog to sit, roll over fetch, track,etc. without "clerical compulsion". Maybe I treat Undead differently or the wrong way. But to me, they have no survival instinct or self-preservation.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:37 pm

No one is really an expert. It's completely up to interpretation. I like undead. I like to make them scary. I think making them have a lingering "consciousness" goes a long way toward that.

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 3:11 pm

BLOOD AXE wrote:
I think "mindless" is even a step below "animal".

I'd agree. Even an idiotic puppy knows going over a cliff will hurt. Mindless means no understanding of consequences, no self-awareness, no sense of survival.

Now, whether zombies are animals or mindless, i think that depends on one's game. Certainly each kind has been seen in many zombie movies. I don't think there is a right answer. It's just a matter of the kind of undead you want.

Personally, i'd give zombies some self-awareness. Skeletons though, they're just walking automatons.

-Fizz

Zebulon · Post by **Zebulon** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:02 pm

I don't see why I would not please the player in having the undead jump into the chasm; I don't think this would break the adventure (or there wouldn't be a chasm here...).

In my games I would treat things like this:

1) Undead being already dead don't fear death, so have no survival instinct that prevents them going through things that could kill them (because depending on depth, chasm may be or may not be lethal in terms of hp loss). For me the Turning divine enrgy would affect them much more than the prospect of death and suffering which for me they are not likely to have. So, when it comes to the chasm they would go into it, although trying to jump or fly if they can.

2) I consider skeletons and zombies to be mindless automatons that will flee no matter what if turned. They are mindless, so won't mind falling into a chasm. Likewise with a creator telling them "walk into the fire" they would do it.

3) Like Serleran said, many undead wouldn't die from falling into a chasm. Personally, zombies would probably be broken and unable to come back, but any undead that requires magical weapons to hit, would not be damaged by the fall. Whether they would come back depends on the circumstances and undead considered.

4) Many undead are incorporeal and thus able to fly (or vampire that shapechange) so going into a chasm won't make them fall anyway. On the other hand, if confronted by daylight, they would stop and cower.

Zebulon · Post by **Zebulon** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:20 am

Fizz wrote:
Now, whether zombies are animals or mindless, i think that depends on one's game. Certainly each kind has been seen in many zombie movies. I don't think there is a right answer. It's just a matter of the kind of undead you want.

For me, the movies' zombies that search and eat human flesh, with their victims becoming undead thereafter, in D&D terms I see them as ghouls rather than zombies.

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:39 pm

Zebulon wrote:
For me, the movies' zombies that search and eat human flesh, with their victims becoming undead thereafter, in D&D terms I see them as ghouls rather than zombies.

Depends on the movie. The undead in `Shaun of the Dead' would have been zombies- dumb, slow, but not totally mindless. Those in `I Am Legend' would better be described as ghouls- not only quick but cunning.

-Fizz

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:43 pm

The typical Romero "zombie" is actually a ghoul, if you read the credits or watch any interview with him. But, that's splitting hairs.
It truly depends on the movie, if you're going to base undead on those. Even the "zombies" in the 28 * movies aren't really "zombies." The Serpent and the Rainbow has real zombies. So does Bela Lugosi's White Zombie. Not many movies truly use zombies correctly, in my opinion.

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:06 pm

serleran wrote:
Not many movies truly use zombies correctly, in my opinion.

Or maybe it is you who don't understand them properly...
-Fizz

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:11 pm

No. That is an eventuality of an enigma, the culmination of a dynamic metastatic anomaly, wherein the aposiopesis juxtaposition reduces effect vis-a-vis causality, and in this case, perforce and randomly, such possibilities are impossible.

Sorry, felt like channeling a little Matrix Reloaded.

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:04 pm

Sounds like the noise adults make on Charlie Brown cartoons... and makes about as much sense.

-Fizz

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:23 pm

Woohoo! Mission accomplished.

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:30 pm

Nah, par for the course for you Serl...
-Fizz

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:38 pm

Oh. Dang it, you're right. Must try harder.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:00 pm

serleran wrote:
No. That is an eventuality of an enigma, the culmination of a dynamic metastatic anomaly, wherein the aposiopesis juxtaposition reduces effect vis-a-vis causality, and in this case, perforce and randomly, such possibilities are impossible.

Sorry, felt like channeling a little Matrix Reloaded.

The worst things about the Matrix movies was that piece of crap Merovingian. I like speaking French... shut up idiot. The Wachowski bros. really know how to ruin a trilogy don't they? Merovingian... SHUT UP! Thanks for channeling some of the most pompas, piece of crap dialogue ever.

-O
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Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:04 pm

Omote wrote:
The Wachowski bros. really know how to ruin a trilogy don't they?

Yup. I liked the first one. I couldn't stand the second one. And i didn't even bother to watch the third.

-Fizz

Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:08 pm

Fizz wrote:
Yup. I liked the first one. I couldn't stand the second one. And i didn't even bother to watch the third.

Damn you! Get out of my brain! There can be only one Buttmonkey!

BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:28 pm

The Matrix aside....

Im thinking of the original Dawn of the Dead zombies. When they were gassing up the helicopter, that zombie got his head chopped off by the whirling copter blades while trying to get the people. Or countless movies where zombies stick their hands/arms in shutting doors- losing limbs.

If a zombie would avoid a pit then why not another potentially harmful situation??

If there are 20 armed/armored Soldiers and 1 zombie- would it attack?? I I say Yes.The zombie isnt going to think to itself(or think at all!! its MINDLESS!)' Gee. Im gonna get my a$$ handed to me before i can get a bite of anyone." Its just going to shamble forward trying to kill someone. No self preservation.

Their INT is 0. None. Just me though.

Zebulon · Post by **Zebulon** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:29 pm

I wouldn't mind if this thread came back on topic, concerning undead and turning...

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:38 pm

Certainly the scene from Dawn of the Dead is appropo. But, what to do with Land of the Dead or Day of the Dead where the "zombies" (/"ghouls") indicate they have potential for limited sentience?

Perhaps it has more to do with age and condition of the zombie... that is, if the zombie is basically intact, and brand new, it might have a 1 or 2 Intelligence; all others have a --?

Fizz · Post by **Fizz** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:19 pm

BLOOD AXE wrote:
"Gee. Im gonna get my a$$ handed to me before i can get a bite of anyone." Its just going to shamble forward trying to kill someone. No self preservation.

Their INT is 0. None. Just me though.

Interesting points, and it comes to the nature of the Turn Undead ability itself.

Consider- what is it that's actually turning the zombies? If zombies are totally mindless and have no sense of self-preservation, it's not a `decision' on their part to move away. Nor is it a `charm' on their brains- they have no mind. So the supernatural power must be physically pushing them away, even though they're driven otherwise.

So if Turn Undead is physically pushing them away, why not for other types of undead? Why would intelligent undead have the `choice' of cowering or going over the cliff?

It's like trying to walk through a supernatural wall. This `wall' pushes away zombies, because being mindless they can't be afraid or convinced of anything. So why would intelligent undead be able to walk through this `wall'?

Thoughts?

-Fizz

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:24 pm

Fizz wrote:
Yup. I liked the first one. I couldn't stand the second one. And i didn't even bother to watch the third.

-Fizz

I watched all 3 and loved them.
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BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:49 pm

serleran wrote:
Certainly the scene from Dawn of the Dead is appropo. But, what to do with Land of the Dead or Day of the Dead where the "zombies" (/"ghouls") indicate they have potential for limited sentience?

Perhaps it has more to do with age and condition of the zombie... that is, if the zombie is basically intact, and brand new, it might have a 1 or 2 Intelligence; all others have a --?

M&T says Zombies have a 0 INT. Maybe we can ask the author or Co-Author.
Im just saying, TO ME, "Dawn" zombies are the classics, so thats how I model my zombies. Im not saying its right, its just my way.

Related- do living creatures affected by fear or terror and fleeing get a choice?? Would they flee off a cliff?? Just wondering.

I don't use the "wall" analogy. I think its more like terror of the power/symbol of the Deity/divine. But again, personal choice.

I don't think there is a definite right/wrong answer. Part of the big appeal of C&C is its simplicity, not hundreds of pages of rules covering every scenario. You have to make your own decision for your own campaign.