Troll Lord Games

Here is what I think is my final version of the Demon Hunter class, revised with the generous help and criticism of the folks on this board. I think it manages to emulate the powers and abilities of fictional characters like Abraham Van Helsing, Buffy Summers, Ash, Solomon Kane, etc, while still maintaining a power level in line with other C&C classes and not infringing on any other classes' niche. Thank you everyone!

DEMON HUNTERS

The night is filled with terrors. Vicious Lycanthropes hunt hapless travelers. Vampires and other undead rise from their graves to to feed on the innocent. Foul abominations from the dark corners of the world pursue their incomprehensible schemes. Even foul demons summoned from the depths of the Outer Darkness may appear to spread evil over the earth. Against it all stands the Demon Hunter, ready to put the foul things of darkness to the sword.

Although they are called Demon Hunters, these characters are alsodedicated to eradicating lycanthropes, the undead, and abberations.The Demon Hunters fight their favored enemies without mercy. Whether they 4attack from stealth, or in open combat, the Demon Hunter's job is not finished until his quarry is exterminated.

Like Paladins, Demon Hunters are dedicated to the fight against the supernatural forces of evil and darkness. Unlike Paladins, Demon Hunters are not necessarily also dedicated to the cause of justice and goodness. Demons Hunters pursue their profession for reasons ranging from revenge to monetary gain. Many Demon Hunters are even evilly-aligned themselves, and and perfectly willing to endanger and kill innocent humans in their quest to destroy demons. Even good-aligned Demon Hunters can be quite willing to bend or break the law to apprehend their quarry.

Demon Hunters are proficient with all weapons, and are ready to use whatever is required to defeat a particular foe. Because they often need to benefit of speed, however, they only use the lighter kinds of armor.

The profession of Demon Hunter tends to draw all races to it equally. Dwarves and Half-Orcs in particular make excellent Demon-hunters; the former due to their familiarity with the subterranean abodes where evil lurks, the latter due to their often personal familiarity with evil itself.

Some Demon Hunter charge high fees for their services, and become quite rich as result. Others are little more than vagabonds, living by their wits improvising what they need. Some Demon Hunters are members of wide-ranging fraternities, with oaths of hospitality and codes of conduct worthy of any Knight. Others are freelance slayers, who regard each other more as rivals than allies. It is not unknown for two or more demon hunters to fight each otehr over the right to slay monsters in a given territory!

Demon Hunters tend to view Clerics and Paladins as powerful allies. Fighters, Barbarians, Knights and Rangers are also valued for their fighting ability. They are indifferent to Druids, Bards and Illusionists. Wizards are often in conflict with Demon Hunters, however. Demon Hunters are often forced to cooperate with Rogues to obtain entrance into hidden or forbidden areas. Assassins are also sometimes allies of convenience for Demon Hunters. Monks tend to view Demon Hunters with suspicion, seeing their violently obsessive natures as little netter than the demons they claim to hunt.

ABILITIES

DEMONOLOGY (Intelligence): Upon encountering any demon, undead, lycanthrope, or aberration, a demon hunter can make an intelligence check. Success means that he knows the type of creature he is facing, knows if the creature has more or less Hit Dice than himself, knows the creature's name if it is famous, and also remembers some bit of information useful to defeating it (such as special weapons needed, etc). Demonology can pierce disguises, and such spells as change self and polymorph.

TRUE STRIKE: Demon Hunters can use any weapon to harm (but not kill) creatures ordinarily hit only by special weapons. At first level, Demon Hunters can harm creatures ordinarily only hit by silver or iron weapons. At 4th, they can also hit creatures only affected by +1 magical weapons. This ability increases to include those affected by +2 weapons at 8th level, and +3 at 12th level. The Demon Hunter cannot kill these creatures using ordinary weapons, however; the death blow must still be brought by the right kind of material. Furthermore, a demon hunters weapons always deal their normal amount of damage, even if the creature is normally not fully affected by weapons of that type. Example: A Demon Hunter can strike at incorporeal undead with slashing weapons, for full normal damage.

FEAT OF STRENGTH (OR DEXTERITY): Starting at 2nd level, a demon hunter can increase his effective Strength or Dexterity once a day. This lasts for one round per Level of the Demon Hunter. The amount of the increase is the same as the effect of an Enhance Attribute spell: 1d4+1 for a Prime Attribute, 1d2+1 for a Non-Prime Attribute. He can use this ability twice a day at 6th level, and 3 times a day at 10th level.

IRON WILL: Starting at 3rd Level, Demon Hunters gain a saving throw bonus to resist mind control, energy drain, lycanthropy, spells, and spell-like powers used by their favored enemies. This bonus is equal to +1 at 3rd Level, +2 at 6th, +3 at 9th, and +4 at 12th.

TRACKING (Wisdom): With a successful Wisdom check, a Demon Hunter can find traces of its favored enemies and track them for 5 hours, similar to a Ranger's abilities. The Demon Hunter will know what type of creature they are tracking. Unlike a ranger, this ability functions in any environment. The Demon Hunter never gains any of the Ranger's other tracking related abilities, however. Demon Hunters can only track their favored enemies.

OBSESSIVE: If A Demon Hunter encounters any creature that his Demonology ability reveals

1- to be a demon, devil, undead, aberration or lycanthrope,

2- to have fewer HD than himself,

3- to be destroyed by special means that the Demon Hunter has at hand (a stake for vampires, silver weapons for Lycanthropes),

4- to be currently positioned to cause potential harm,

the Demon Hunter must succeed at a Wisdom save or feel compelled to destroy the creature as quickly as he can. It does not matter if the Demon Hunter kills the creature himself, or with help. The CK should adjust the Challenge Level of the Wisdom save as appropriate to the situation. Example resisting the urge to kill the local Baron, who is a Werewolf, in public, with his guards, should be easy. Resisting the urge to kill a lone werewolf, in a dungeon, when the Demon Hunter has aid, should be difficult.

If a Demon Hunter who failed his initial Wisdom save chooses to run away, he must make another Wisdom save. If he fails, he will become overcome with doubt and fear, losing all his special abilities. The loss of abilities lasts until the creature that made him lose the abilities is destroyed. Example: A 1st level Demon Hunter armed with a club can run away from a Vampire without consequences, because he stands no reasonable chance of defeating the monster. A 5th Level Demon Hunter with a silver sword cannot run away from a Wererat, or let it escape.

PRIME ATTRIBUTE: Strength

HIT DICE: d8

ALIGNMENT : Any

WEAPONS: Any

ARMOR: Breastplates, Chain Shirt, Mail Hauberk, Coat of Plates, Cuir Bouille Leather, Leather Coat, Studded Leather, Lamellar, Brigandine, Padded Armor

ABILITES: Demonology, True Strike, Feat of Strength (or Dexterity), Iron Will, Tracking

Level | Hit Dice | Basic To-Hit Bonus | Experience Points

1 | d8 | +0 | 0

2 | d8 | +1 | 2,251

3 | d8 | +2 | 5,001

4 | d8 | +3 | 9,001

5 | d8 | +4 | 18,001

6 | d8 | +5 | 35,001

7 | d8 | +6 | 70,001

8 | d8 | +7 | 140,001

9 | d8 | +8 | 300,001

10 | d8 | +9 | 425,001

11 | +3 HP | +10 | 650,001

12 | +3 HP | +11 | 900,001

13+ | | | +250,000 per level

The only possible problem I see (and it has been brought up before on this board) is the Primes.

You have it as STR Prime, but have their abilities based on WIS and INT as well. So if a player wants to be the best "Demon Hunter" possible they will have to be human and take Primes in STR, INT, and WIS (DEX if they want to go that route).

So you may want to consolidate the class skills under fewer attributes to allow players more flexibility in choosing Primes.

Like I would put Demonology under WIS, just like I have religion checks for Clerics and Paladins. That way to be "the best" they only have to select STR and WIS as primes, and still be an elf. Or if a human they can select the Prime of their choice for the variety. IE to make themselves a little more unique, etc...

You could even go so far as making them a WIS Prime class too, making only a prime in WIS necessary to be "the best" they possibly can in the class, then put the other Prime, or two (if human), to customize the character a bit more.

Personally I have been thinking about rewriting all the classes to revolve around one, or at most, two Primes, rather than having them all over the place.

However, I don't really need to do this because of my house rule. ALL class abilities are treated as having a Prime in the relevant stat, even if it isn't.

I do this because the PC is as good as it is supposed to be in its class areas, but still isn't nearly as good in things outside of their class.

I also have simple skill system to allow players to customize their PC's even more. However, they seem to largely ignore the "skills" option in play. So I think I could erase the skills section from hy HR document and maybe only two or 3 would even notice.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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Treebore wrote:
The only possible problem I see (and it has been brought up before on this board) is the Primes.

You have it as STR Prime, but have their abilities based on WIS and INT as well. So if a player wants to be the best "Demon Hunter" possible they will have to be human and take Primes in STR, INT, and WIS (DEX if they want to go that route).

So you may want to consolidate the class skills under fewer attributes to allow players more flexibility in choosing Primes.

Like I would put Demonology under WIS, just like I have religion checks for Clerics and Paladins. That way to be "the best" they only have to select STR and WIS as primes, and still be an elf. Or if a human they can select the Prime of their choice for the variety. IE to make themselves a little more unique, etc...

You could even go so far as making them a WIS Prime class too, making only a prime in WIS necessary to be "the best" they possibly can in the class, then put the other Prime, or two (if human), to customize the character a bit more.

Personally I have been thinking about rewriting all the classes to revolve around one, or at most, two Primes, rather than having them all over the place.

However, I don't really need to do this because of my house rule. ALL class abilities are treated as having a Prime in the relevant stat, even if it isn't.

I do this because the PC is as good as it is supposed to be in its class areas, but still isn't nearly as good in things outside of their class.

I also have simple skill system to allow players to customize their PC's even more. However, they seem to largely ignore the "skills" option in play. So I think I could erase the skills section from hy HR document and maybe only two or 3 would even notice.

I see your point. To be honest, I purposefully put the necessary primes all over the place, in order to create a situation where the player of Demon Hunter is making meaningful decisions at character creation.

I chose Strength as the class Prime, because the Demon Hunter is essentially a combat class. Also, I wanted every Demon Hunter to get good, Buffy-like Feats of Strength, to make them more effective in combat.

If the Player chooses Intelligence as a Prime, it increases his very useful Demonology power. But the more the player successfully uses his Demonology, the more his Obsession will kick in.

If the player chooses Dex as a Prime, his Feat of dexterity will be more powerful. But his other abilities are Wisdom and Intelligence based.

If the player chooses Wisdom, he becomes a better tracker, and can better resist his Obsession, at the possible cost of better Demonology and Feat of Dex.

Humans are likely going to be better Demon Hunters overall, but the the Demi-Human ability to see in the dark, for example (when the Demon Hunter's prey is most active) makes up for the Demi-Human's lesser class abilities.

By making the choices hard and meaningful, I wanted also to make the class "re-playable": There are a lot of different combinations of class and Prime choices that could create emergent synergies. I don't see a single, optimal way of playing a Demon Hunter, which I think is a good thing. I can see players wanting to try out different combos.

Of course, the beauty of the C&C system is that a CK could totally change the default Prime of the class, or follow your example and give characters the effect of a Prime in their class abilities, and it won't break the class. As I wrote it, the class is weighted towards Ash/Buffy emulation. Make it INT-based, and you're more closely emulating Van Helsing. Make it WIS-based, and you're in Solomon Kane territory.

Believe me, I understand that, just don't be surprised when someone comes along and says you forced those decisions on them. Which is true. I suppose the ideal situation would be to write them up both ways and let the player have the "freedom" to chose which way they do it.

Freedom is largely illusionary anyways.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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Treebore wrote:
Believe me, I understand that, just don't be surprised when someone comes along and says you forced those decisions on them. Which is true. I suppose the ideal situation would be to write them up both ways and let the player have the "freedom" to chose which way they do it.

Freedom is largely illusionary anyways.

It would be interesting for a CK to let a player freely choose the Prime attribute the Demon Hunter class.

I'm thinking of the different Prime combinations that might emulate certain fictional Demon Hunters. For example:

Buffy Summers - Strength, Dexterity, Charisma

Ash - Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence (Ash has LOW Wisdom, but an incredible ability to improvise and invent)

Faith Lehane - Strength, Dexterity, Constitution

Abraham Van Helsing - Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma

Solomon Kane - Strength, Wisdom, Constitution

Right, I am not disagreeing with you, I just have this philosophy of accomodating players when I can think of ways to do so. Which is why I say "freedom is illusion", because many of my supposed "fixes" made the players think they were getting it their way, but the actual execution of it still gave me the control I wanted.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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I really like this! I'd be willing to let one of my player's try this out in my current C&C Campaign.

Demonology, the first part, is good. The part about piercing magical disguises... no. Not for "free" and not without penalty. I would make it at -10, or something.

serleran wrote:
Demonology, the first part, is good. The part about piercing magical disguises... no. Not for "free" and not without penalty. I would make it at -10, or something.

I think he uses the word "can" on purpose. I would just use the illusion user/casters HD as the CL for a SIEGE check to pierce the illusions, just like I do for spellcasters.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Also, does not the ability to determine whether the critter has more or less hit dice than himself somewhat irrelavent?

Consider the CL of the check will be the HD of the critter itself. It's most likely failed because the CL is too high. Thus, a failed check, most likely means the foe is of a higher hit die.

So, a failed check tells him something anyways. It won't be perfect of course, but the odds of it go more in his favor as he continues to level up.

Just something to consider...

-Fizz

Fizz wrote:
Also, does not the ability to determine whether the critter has more or less hit dice than himself somewhat irrelavent?

Consider the CL of the check will be the HD of the critter itself. It's most likely failed because the CL is too high. Thus, a failed check, most likely means the foe is of a higher hit die.

So, a failed check tells him something anyways. It won't be perfect of course, but the odds of it go more in his favor as he continues to level up.

Just something to consider...

-Fizz

I would say it is important, because it helps him to know if he should run or not.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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Treebore wrote:
I would say it is important, because it helps him to know if he should run or not.

Yes, but a failed check, statistically speaking, tells him something. In effect, as he levels up, a failed check becomes less of a failed check. If he's 10th level and he failed, odds are that critter has plenty of hit dice.

-Fizz

Fizz wrote:
Yes, but a failed check, statistically speaking, tells him something. In effect, as he levels up, a failed check becomes less of a failed check. If he's 10th level and he failed, odds are that critter has plenty of hit dice.

-Fizz

Right, but I see nothing wrong with that. The purpose of the ability is to have the player know when he should run. The goal of the ability is to prevent the PC from dying. So I think it just helps enforce that desired end to the ability.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

No, the goal of the ability to function as an enhanced case target - it gives clues to true death (and not just clues, actually) as well as weaknesses and even a true sight spell effect. It is a bit much - it should be staggered, at best.

From my intentions, Treebore is correct on both counts. My purpose for Demonology revealing HD is let the player know whether they can run away without tripping off the PC's Obsession.

Also, Demonology doesn't always pierce disguises (it's CK's option as to when it does), and should use the creature's HD as the CL. I see the rolls sometimes being made secretly by the CK when a disguised creature is encountered, who perhaps then passes the player a note saying something like "Its a disguised demon with over 8 HD, and you need magic weapons to defeat it." It's still undoubtedly a powerful ability, which is part of the reason why the class does not have a higher HD than d8, needs a relatively high amount of XP to advance, and has to suffer a drawback like Obsession.

I decided that Demonology could also sometimes pierce disguises to replicate fiction where a hunter suddenly attacks the disguised Vampire that everyone thought was a regular person.

Of course, individual CKs should alter the class as they feel fit. There's a number of minor tweaks that could easily be made that would make the class fit better into individual campaigns. I've said it before, that's the beauty of the C&C system.

OK Ocelet, you've really got to reduce the size of that avatar... takes up a third of my screen! Ack!
-Fizz

clavis123 wrote:
From my intentions, Treebore is correct on both counts. My purpose for Demonology revealing HD is let the player know whether they can run away without tripping off the PC's Obsession.

OK, so the philosophy is, if in doubt, assume the worst. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just wanted to make sure you knew that is what would happen. Heh.

-Fizz

Apparently, the forums do not automatically re-size when hot-linked. Annoying.

Fizz wrote:
OK, so the philosophy is, if in doubt, assume the worst. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just wanted to make sure you knew that is what would happen. Heh.

-Fizz

Of course. After all, the Demon Hunter is a horror archetype, and the class is intended for Horror/Dark Fantasy-style games. For that style of campaign, mechanics that encourage a sense of paranoia and fear are a good thing!

Telling the player "for some reason, you are unable to figure out anything about the creature", or "the subject appears to be an ordinary man, you just can't be sure", and the player figuring out that its something unknown, but probably bad, is great fun. Does the character run away while he can, or attack? What if the creature is too strong, or really is just a person? That kind of tension is what makes a Horror/Dark Fantasy game work!

It would certainly work well in a gothic horror setting. Ravenloft immediately comes to mind.

-Fizz

Quote:
Telling the player "for some reason, you are unable to figure out anything about the creature", or "the subject appears to be an ordinary man, you just can't be sure", and the player figuring out that its something unknown, but probably bad, is great fun. Does the character run away while he can, or attack? What if the creature is too strong, or really is just a person? That kind of tension is what makes a Horror/Dark Fantasy game work!

then why are you removing it?

if the player can just make a roll and say "oh, this guy is a 15 hd vampire lord named Ghehahnas who can only be killed if you fart garlic acid into his ears while calling him Mary" then you've removed the key elements you just described -- the paranoia and "what the hell" moments. you have taken all those thing and made it a single die roll. boring.

Gleemax Jr wrote:
then why are you removing it?

if the player can just make a roll and say "oh, this guy is a 15 hd vampire lord named Ghehahnas who can only be killed if you fart garlic acid into his ears while calling him Mary" then you've removed the key elements you just described -- the paranoia and "what the hell" moments. you have taken all those thing and made it a single die roll. boring.

Its also boring and just bad GMing to throw something at players that they can't figure out how to kill. Especially if it is powerful enough to kill them. You have to have a happy medium or your going to ruin the fun of the game by slaughtering the PC's if they don't have a way to learn how to win the fight.

I would rather have a mechanic built in to where a PC can figure out, through expertise or some awesome insight, what needs to be done to win, rather than wonder if I'll end up having to tell them or kill their PC because they didn't figure it out from clues that were dropped.

So yes, its a bit of give and take, but you need to have happy players when its all over. This class is the expert, so give the class a way to allow that expertise to be used.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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no, its bad players to fail at solving a mystery - if you're playing call of cthulhu, you expect the bad guys to be somewhat powerful and mysterious. if you play a dark horror game, you expect the same thing. the game system doesn't change the expectation, only how it plays out. resorting to a die roll for bad player skill is bad game design. dms are responsible for making the game interesting, not handholding -- that is why, say, in ravenloft module, you encounter strahd numerous times and he is not there to kill you each time -- its a test of the player skill. why cannot the dm do the same without some roll? would you be happy if you were playing i6 adventure and some player rolled one good roll and suddenly knew everything to defeat strahd, eventhough it is impossible he had ever heard of him? i think no.

get away from mechanics for everything. its bad design.
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What if Don Quixote was a drow? Would he be attacking windmills underground? -- gleemax.com

Gleemax Jr wrote:
no, its bad players to fail at solving a mystery - if you're playing call of cthulhu, you expect the bad guys to be somewhat powerful and mysterious. if you play a dark horror game, you expect the same thing. the game system doesn't change the expectation, only how it plays out. resorting to a die roll for bad player skill is bad game design. dms are responsible for making the game interesting, not handholding -- that is why, say, in ravenloft module, you encounter strahd numerous times and he is not there to kill you each time -- its a test of the player skill. why cannot the dm do the same without some roll? would you be happy if you were playing i6 adventure and some player rolled one good roll and suddenly knew everything to defeat strahd, eventhough it is impossible he had ever heard of him? i think no.

get away from mechanics for everything. its bad design.

C&C is not Call of Cthulhu. In a game like C&C, players expect to be able to defeat monsters and get treasure. Even if you play it with an overall Dark Fantasy feel, it's still a game of action and adventure. More Army of Darkness than the Exorcist; Deadites are everywhere, but Ash knows his enemy, and can kick demon a*s. There's nothing wrong with CoC style investigations, and I like that style of play myself. But sometimes, a player just wants to destroy the undead and look cool doing it. The Demonology power is meant to emulate the knowledge and cunning displayed by fictional Demon Hunters. If it wasn't there, I would expect players to ask why their characters choose to hunt monsters, but never bothered to learn anything about them first. Plus, if the Ck passes the knowledge gained by a Demonology check to a player secretly, it give that player the chance to roleplay out revealing that knowledge to the rest of the party in a fun way, like:

"Any of you pantywaists ever seen a real werewolf before? Well, you're about to see one die!"

Incidentally, there are lots of actual examples in Lovecraft's work of the supposedly unbeatable Mythos horrors getting their a*ses kicked. Such as in the story Call of Cthulhu itself (Cthulhu versus ship!), or the Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath. Or the end of Shadows Over Innsmouth, where there's an all-out assault on the town.

clavis123 wrote:
C&C is not Call of Cthulhu. In a game like C&C, players expect to be able to defeat monsters and get treasure. Even if you play it with an overall Dark Fantasy feel, it's still a game of action and adventure. More Army of Darkness than the Exorcist; Deadites are everywhere, but Ash knows his enemy, and can kick demon a*s. There's nothing wrong with CoC style investigations, and I like that style of play myself. But sometimes, a player just wants to destroy the undead and look cool doing it. The Demonology power is meant to emulate the knowledge and cunning displayed by fictional Demon Hunters. If it wasn't there, I would expect players to ask why their characters choose to hunt monsters, but never bothered to learn anything about them first. Plus, if the Ck passes the knowledge gained by a Demonology check to a player secretly, it give that player the chance to roleplay out revealing that knowledge to the rest of the party in a fun way, like:

"Any of you pantywaists ever seen a real werewolf before? Well, you're about to see one die!"

Incidentally, there are lots of actual examples in Lovecraft's work of the supposedly unbeatable Mythos horrors getting their a*ses kicked. Such as in the story Call of Cthulhu itself (Cthulhu versus ship!), or the Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath. Or the end of Shadows Over Innsmouth, where there's an all-out assault on the town.

I have ran Ravenloft I6 over 14 times now. The Vistani Fortune Cards in the beginning of the module set teh party up with ways to defeat Strahd, other than getting lucky and over powering him, or through some very insightful role play. I6 is also my all time favorite module, and I love the Ravenloft setting, so I run plenty dark enough games. You can ask about 14 people who come to these boards who I run Ravenloft.

Its obvious you (Gleemax) and I have very different approaches to running a game. Apparently you have no problem railroading them into being killed, while I have no problem giving them numerous chances to live. Maybe your players accept and like being killed, I just know the vast majority of my players prefer their character to live. So I run my games so that my players have a fighting chance. Having no chance at all sucks. Whats the point of playing if you know your going to die?
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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i do not kill characters simply for fun but i do not hold them back from death if that is the natural course of their actions. i expect players to not be stupid and realize when something is beyond their abilities, but i also do not just throw such things at them all the time - but, without it, what's the point? there is no challenge. it's all "this is perfectly designed for you."

but, play how you like. your game. your table.

true horror is not what you describe.
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What if Don Quixote was a drow? Would he be attacking windmills underground? -- gleemax.com

Gleemax Jr wrote:
i do not kill characters simply for fun but i do not hold them back from death if that is the natural course of their actions. i expect players to not be stupid and realize when something is beyond their abilities, but i also do not just throw such things at them all the time - but, without it, what's the point? there is no challenge. it's all "this is perfectly designed for you."

but, play how you like. your game. your table.

true horror is not what you describe.

Well, maybe we are just communicating poorly via a messageboard. Horror is not brutality. It is subtle, it creeps, hides, and strikes without warning. It hides in plain sight.

Your descriptions have been sounding more like brutality/overwhelming force is horror.

All I know is when I ran my Ravenloft games at home several of my players had their hair standing on end with huge goose bumps, every week. I didn't get those results on line, but I know I can do horror very, very well.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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Players failing to solve a mystery presented to them sounds like a classic problem that always lurks around (also known as an excuse as to why the adventure did not go as the GM had planned).

As the one running the adventure everything always seems perfectly logical as to how it should happen (of course it does, you are running the adventure).

Even the best-laid plans fall apart when the party just does not get the hint, or misses a clue.

Throwing extras into the adventure to get them back on track is a key ability of a good GM.

If you can keep them interested in playing after constantly killing them off for what they believe is no reason, then you must be doing something right somewhere. Each GM has their own style, and the players either adapt to that style and enjoy themselves or move on. You eventually end up with either a really great gaming group, or a bunch of players who cannot find anyone else to play with and reluctantly keep playing with you.

If they keep showing up, stick to your style until they lynch you.

they know very well why they die in my games - 99% it is because they did something really stupid like diving into a "pool of pristine water" without first checking to make sure it actually was water (it was not - it was a bath of acid used by the occupant black dragon whom they had killed earlier), or by instigating violence against the king in his own castle, or all kinds of other things. i am not beholden to player ignorance, or inability - you live in this world and the fantasy one by using what brains, skill, and luck that you have - i don't get to make a d20 roll to see if i know what is in the C&C PHB; i either do, or i don't.

but, that is enough on this particular subtopic. i don't like the class ability, others do. great.

maybe the class should have an improvised weapon ability, like turning a table into stakes, or using a gauntlet to make a hand - i mean, if you want to be serious about the source material.
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What if Don Quixote was a drow? Would he be attacking windmills underground? -- gleemax.com

Gleemax Jr wrote:
maybe the class should have an improvised weapon ability, like turning a table into stakes, or using a gauntlet to make a hand - i mean, if you want to be serious about the source material.

Which is a great idea, and definitely true to source. I didn't spell it out as an Ability because I generally let my players do that sort of thing "for free" in my campaign, although I did make sure Demon Hunters could use any weapon. I would recommend CKs allow Demon Hunters to improvise weapons, on a case-by-case basis.