I am a long time BattleTech wargamer and have been doing some research into roleplaying heavy pen and paper games. I'm really dying to immerse myself in a rich fantasy setting and so far the majority of products that I have my eye on are all D&D based, most 3.X creations; Ptolus, Arcana Unearthed, Book Of Iron Might, Books Of Eldritch Might, Wilderlands Of High Fantasy... to name a few. The other fantasy systems I'm considering are Warhammer FRP, Talislanta, Atlantis: The 2nd Age, Seventh Seal, and The Darkness. With the exception of Warhammer all of those settings use The Omni System which is outstanding.
I've had an opportunity to sit in on some 3.X D&D games and have been very unhappy with the flow of the game. D&D 3.X seems like a munchkin's sandbox and the combat seems more like a wargame than an encounter. I also really like a lot of the older OD&D/OAD&D gaming philosophies. D&D 3.X seems like an attempt to appeal to the broadest range of people possible by making whatever character a play can imagine just as balanced and accessible as any other character. This same philosophy sells countless subscriptions to online MMORPG's. Anyway C&C has my attention but I'm a little unsure of a few things.
After reading a couple of RPGnet reviews of the C&C Players Handbook I get the impression that I might not have everything I need with that book alone. Both reviewers used material from D&D products to fill in the gaps but other than the ideas presented in wikipedia articles, I really have no experience with actual D&D products/gaming. Will I need non-C&C products to get a campaign running under C&C? I'm dying to play Ptolus which is a 3.X product. I know that some conversion will be required but is converting something as large as Ptolus a bit out of my league as a first time GM? If C&C is not complete, what kind of stuff will I need to come up with to make it complete? Magic systems, equipment lists, monsters, etc...?
Any information and/or feedback would be most appreciated
New To PnP Gaming: What Do I Need?
Hello, and welcome!
3X appeals to many people...not to me, but obviously a lot of people like it and that's fine. However, its perfectly acceptable to find the game not to your taste. After all, IMO *no* game works well for everyone and everything; its all a matter of taste.
As for your questions... If you are going to run C&C you will need the C&C Players Handbook and the C&C Monsters & Treasure. That's all you need to run the system. Older versions of A/D&D Monsters and Magic Items can be used successfully if you'd rather not buy M&T, but since you don't have any of the OOP stuff I'd reccomend getting C&C's M&T.
To play (as a player) you only need the Players Handbook. Only Castle Keepers need the M&T (or an OOP alternative). As to 3X conversions...while its harder than converting from OOP A/D&D its not impossible by any means. There are several people around here that have done so and will hopefully provide more info on that than I can (don't use any 3X) myself).
Oh, and C&C is built so that you can import rules from other systems you like without upsetting the balance of the system. That's probably where all the references to importing magic, etc. came from in those reviews. Its possible, but not necessary to play.
I also don't really know Ptolas so can't comment on how hard it might be to convert. But since its a Monty Cook work and he's known for a lot of crunchy (ie rules intensive) stuff it might be rough. I'd reccomend getting the 2 C&C books first, familiarize yourself with the system and then look at the campaign setting from that light.
HTH,
Mike
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot
3X appeals to many people...not to me, but obviously a lot of people like it and that's fine. However, its perfectly acceptable to find the game not to your taste. After all, IMO *no* game works well for everyone and everything; its all a matter of taste.
As for your questions... If you are going to run C&C you will need the C&C Players Handbook and the C&C Monsters & Treasure. That's all you need to run the system. Older versions of A/D&D Monsters and Magic Items can be used successfully if you'd rather not buy M&T, but since you don't have any of the OOP stuff I'd reccomend getting C&C's M&T.
To play (as a player) you only need the Players Handbook. Only Castle Keepers need the M&T (or an OOP alternative). As to 3X conversions...while its harder than converting from OOP A/D&D its not impossible by any means. There are several people around here that have done so and will hopefully provide more info on that than I can (don't use any 3X) myself).
Oh, and C&C is built so that you can import rules from other systems you like without upsetting the balance of the system. That's probably where all the references to importing magic, etc. came from in those reviews. Its possible, but not necessary to play.
I also don't really know Ptolas so can't comment on how hard it might be to convert. But since its a Monty Cook work and he's known for a lot of crunchy (ie rules intensive) stuff it might be rough. I'd reccomend getting the 2 C&C books first, familiarize yourself with the system and then look at the campaign setting from that light.
HTH,
Mike
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot
What sieg says.
I am one of those who use a LOT of 3E for my C&C games, but mostly in the form of modules. I have also developed a system for integrating feats into my game, plus I have just done a much simpler skill system than what is in 3E.
As for converting 3E to C&C I believe there is a document stickied around one of these forums. I don't refer to it anymore. Once I got used to doing it I pretty much convert as I go, rather than an intensive process of converting every time you want to use something new. Yep, it is that simple, once you get how to do it.
Just to give you a sense of where I come from as a gamer, I'll give you some of my RPG background.
I have done almost exclusively RPG's. I played around with doing miniatures gaming, but never got serious enough to even buy my own sets.
I have played since early 1985, and have played every edition of D&D and a fair number of other RPG's. I even toiled with 3E for about 5 years. I am going on my third year of C&C. C&C is my favorite system for fantasy. One reason why, is when I say "my" it is literally "mine" to a certain extent.
Like sieg alluded to C&C is a very adaptable base line system. So you take it as your "base" or "foundation" game system, then you add and subtract from it until you have exactly the game you want.
To be clear, C&C is completely playable just as written. One of its greatest strengths is that you can add and modify pretty much to your hearts content, and not "break it". Assuming you even understand game mechanics enough to make sensible new rules to add to C&C. Which I would think you do with your mentioned back ground. You at least understand the "numbers" aspects, I would guess.
As for converting Ptolus, if all your looking to do is use the Ptolus setting there really is no conversion to do. Now if you want to use classes and Prestige Classes, you have some serious conversion decisions to make. Converting spells, magic items, and standard monsters is pretty easy.
Using the Wilderlands setting is a snap. I own it too, including the original version as well as the 3E version. If you want "C&C"ized Wilderlands goodness you really need to look up Adventure Games Publishing and their licensed C&C version of the Wilderlands. They have some excellent preview material on their site to give you a very good idea of what you will get for your money. The only draw back is that AGP is literally a one man show, so his speed of publication is very slow. However, the content is very superior and worth the waits.
As for the Arcana books, and Iron Might, its the same deal. If your more into the setting fluff than you are the mechanics, then the conversions are easy. If you want to use classes, Prestige Classes, or magic systems, it will take more work, but is very doable. Just realize to do all of that is going to potentially require a notebook of house rules (3? 20? 30? 70? pages), depending on what you want to use.
Very worth it if you want a system that is exactly what you want it to be, but if your happy with what is already there, then you may as well just go with it.
Feel free to continue asking questions.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
I am one of those who use a LOT of 3E for my C&C games, but mostly in the form of modules. I have also developed a system for integrating feats into my game, plus I have just done a much simpler skill system than what is in 3E.
As for converting 3E to C&C I believe there is a document stickied around one of these forums. I don't refer to it anymore. Once I got used to doing it I pretty much convert as I go, rather than an intensive process of converting every time you want to use something new. Yep, it is that simple, once you get how to do it.
Just to give you a sense of where I come from as a gamer, I'll give you some of my RPG background.
I have done almost exclusively RPG's. I played around with doing miniatures gaming, but never got serious enough to even buy my own sets.
I have played since early 1985, and have played every edition of D&D and a fair number of other RPG's. I even toiled with 3E for about 5 years. I am going on my third year of C&C. C&C is my favorite system for fantasy. One reason why, is when I say "my" it is literally "mine" to a certain extent.
Like sieg alluded to C&C is a very adaptable base line system. So you take it as your "base" or "foundation" game system, then you add and subtract from it until you have exactly the game you want.
To be clear, C&C is completely playable just as written. One of its greatest strengths is that you can add and modify pretty much to your hearts content, and not "break it". Assuming you even understand game mechanics enough to make sensible new rules to add to C&C. Which I would think you do with your mentioned back ground. You at least understand the "numbers" aspects, I would guess.
As for converting Ptolus, if all your looking to do is use the Ptolus setting there really is no conversion to do. Now if you want to use classes and Prestige Classes, you have some serious conversion decisions to make. Converting spells, magic items, and standard monsters is pretty easy.
Using the Wilderlands setting is a snap. I own it too, including the original version as well as the 3E version. If you want "C&C"ized Wilderlands goodness you really need to look up Adventure Games Publishing and their licensed C&C version of the Wilderlands. They have some excellent preview material on their site to give you a very good idea of what you will get for your money. The only draw back is that AGP is literally a one man show, so his speed of publication is very slow. However, the content is very superior and worth the waits.
As for the Arcana books, and Iron Might, its the same deal. If your more into the setting fluff than you are the mechanics, then the conversions are easy. If you want to use classes, Prestige Classes, or magic systems, it will take more work, but is very doable. Just realize to do all of that is going to potentially require a notebook of house rules (3? 20? 30? 70? pages), depending on what you want to use.
Very worth it if you want a system that is exactly what you want it to be, but if your happy with what is already there, then you may as well just go with it.
Feel free to continue asking questions.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
This is exactly what I was hoping to hear. I was so unsatisfied with what I found in my research that, before learning of The Omni System, I had my eye on FUDGE and GURPS. The thing about The Omni System that I enjoyed so much was that it required the players to describe almost every aspect of what was going on around them and what their characters were doing. I find the idea of cooperative storytelling to be absolutely intoxicating. In the end FUDGE required so much work and GURPS required far too much memorization, at least for a fledgling DM. What I liked most about FUDGE was that it was modular like C&C. Suffice it to say C&C is so attractive because its modular, adaptable, and works right out of the box.
I had the hardest time settling for just one setting but just don't have the time to play several different game systems a week. I was searching for the ultimate system that would support anything I could throw at it but that would allow for borrowing of settings and the occasional crunch (Call of Cthulhu Sanity System anybody?) from other desirable game systems. C&C sounds like it is exactly what I am looking for. I really appreciate the feedback sieg and Treebore!
I had the hardest time settling for just one setting but just don't have the time to play several different game systems a week. I was searching for the ultimate system that would support anything I could throw at it but that would allow for borrowing of settings and the occasional crunch (Call of Cthulhu Sanity System anybody?) from other desirable game systems. C&C sounds like it is exactly what I am looking for. I really appreciate the feedback sieg and Treebore!
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Birthright
- Hlobane Orc
- Posts: 125
- Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:00 am
Your welcome!
I have heard lots of positive things about Savage Worlds, but C&C is such a perfect fit for me I haven't bothered exploring Savage Worlds myself. I have heard many comments similar to C&C about SW, so it may be worth checking out as well.
Plus I know several people that come to these boards love SW, such as Danger Dwarf, so maybe they will give you the low down about it.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
I have heard lots of positive things about Savage Worlds, but C&C is such a perfect fit for me I haven't bothered exploring Savage Worlds myself. I have heard many comments similar to C&C about SW, so it may be worth checking out as well.
Plus I know several people that come to these boards love SW, such as Danger Dwarf, so maybe they will give you the low down about it.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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DangerDwarf
- Maukling
- Posts: 5284
- Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: East Texas
I don't think you should have any problems converting Ptolus, or any other d20 product for that matter, to C&C. The primary thing to remember is to NOT get bogged down in the the minute details of conversion. Use broad strokes and what doesn't readily fit with C&C, discard.
I've used a large number of d20 products with doing no actual conversion, just ignoring what I don't need in the stat blocks. Easy to do on the fly and works seamlessly with C&C. in fact, I think d20 conversions are easier than previous editions of D&D because I don't even need to convert the AC.
I've used a large number of d20 products with doing no actual conversion, just ignoring what I don't need in the stat blocks. Easy to do on the fly and works seamlessly with C&C. in fact, I think d20 conversions are easier than previous editions of D&D because I don't even need to convert the AC.
DangerDwarf wrote:
I don't think you should have any problems converting Ptolus, or any other d20 product for that matter, to C&C. The primary thing to remember is to NOT get bogged down in the the minute details of conversion. Use broad strokes and what doesn't readily fit with C&C, discard.
I've used a large number of d20 products with doing no actual conversion, just ignoring what I don't need in the stat blocks. Easy to do on the fly and works seamlessly with C&C. in fact, I think d20 conversions are easier than previous editions of D&D because I don't even need to convert the AC.
What? No spreading of Savage World love? Or is it easier to use stuff like Ptolus with C&C than it would be to use with SW?
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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DangerDwarf
- Maukling
- Posts: 5284
- Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: East Texas
Not really hard at all. The Scout is not a very powerful or difficult D20 Class and could virtually be ported over almost wholesale. You would have to decide on an experience progression, but that's not much of an obstacle.
Creating your own new classes and archetypes is also relatively easy. The main barrier is coming up with a concept that actually warrants doing so.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)
Creating your own new classes and archetypes is also relatively easy. The main barrier is coming up with a concept that actually warrants doing so.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)
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old school gamer
- Red Cap
- Posts: 259
- Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:00 am
Matthew wrote:
Not really hard at all. The Scout is not a very powerful or difficult D20 Class and could virtually be ported over almost wholesale. You would have to decide on an experience progression, but that's not much of an obstacle.
Creating your own new classes and archetypes is also relatively easy. The main barrier is coming up with a concept that actually warrants doing so.
Actually the Scout for D&D is pretty much more similiar to the C&C Ranger, because he doesn't have spell use like in 3E.
Yep, but the Scout does differ enough from the C&C Ranger for someone to want to convert it over.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)
Well, you generally have to decide what to do about skills and feats. If a Class relies heavily on those for its differentiation, then you will have to come up with a number of Class Abilities that reflect that.
Magic heavy classes, or classes with entire subsets of abilities, such as those found in Tome of Battle, would probably be quite challenging to convert over. Whenever a class relies on extensive mechanics it will be a labour to convert successfully to the lighter Castle & Crusade ruleset. When I say 'successfully' I mean in so far as you strike a balance with speedy mechanics and not losing the identity of the class in question.
For instance, it would be a simple matter to take the Warblade and basically par him down to the Fighter and replace a few abilities, but would that be a successful conversion?
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)
Magic heavy classes, or classes with entire subsets of abilities, such as those found in Tome of Battle, would probably be quite challenging to convert over. Whenever a class relies on extensive mechanics it will be a labour to convert successfully to the lighter Castle & Crusade ruleset. When I say 'successfully' I mean in so far as you strike a balance with speedy mechanics and not losing the identity of the class in question.
For instance, it would be a simple matter to take the Warblade and basically par him down to the Fighter and replace a few abilities, but would that be a successful conversion?
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)
Yep, Mathew pretty much hits "the nail on the head". Deciding what feats/skills to turn into the class powers of an archetype, and keeping it balanced with the rest of the C&C classes can be very challenging.
Especially since part of playing an archetype system is there be very little duplication between the classes. You may also want to check out Crusader Magazines issue 4 and 5 (I think) where there are melded classes. Which essentially side steps multiclassing by building two classes into one melded class.
Then there is the C&C net book of classes and csperkins classes in his version of what 3E D&D should have been. His version is compiled into his very own Unearthed Arcana PDF. Actually, the main rules are in his Players Handbook PDF, and UA continues on in the same vein as the original 1E UA did.
Thats another cool thing about C&C, you can share ideas with everyone and see what works for you and what doesn't, easily.
For me the feats issue is a bit easier, because in my system most 3E feats can be done by anyone. They just have to roll a successful SIEGE check and they are able to pull off the maneuver they wish.
I even allow them to earn them as a character ability if they successfully do enough SIEGE checks.
So if I were to convert a 3E class to C&C I would only have to worry about the feats that really add to the class concept, since most everything else is covered by SIEGE checks.
Skills are no big deal for me either, since I have a skill system, so the only skills, if any, I switch over to "class abilities" are ones that really define the class.
So its very doable, and like all other conversions, it gets easier with practice.
I have even converted two PrC's to use for higher level advancement. For me PrC's can't be taken until 9th level.
So its doable, and very easy when you develop a clear idea of what you want the class to be.
After all, that is the basic idea of archetype classes. A clear "original" from which all variations are derived. Once upon a time we did it with role play, now it can be done with role play and some class tweaks, or with solid rewrites.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Especially since part of playing an archetype system is there be very little duplication between the classes. You may also want to check out Crusader Magazines issue 4 and 5 (I think) where there are melded classes. Which essentially side steps multiclassing by building two classes into one melded class.
Then there is the C&C net book of classes and csperkins classes in his version of what 3E D&D should have been. His version is compiled into his very own Unearthed Arcana PDF. Actually, the main rules are in his Players Handbook PDF, and UA continues on in the same vein as the original 1E UA did.
Thats another cool thing about C&C, you can share ideas with everyone and see what works for you and what doesn't, easily.
For me the feats issue is a bit easier, because in my system most 3E feats can be done by anyone. They just have to roll a successful SIEGE check and they are able to pull off the maneuver they wish.
I even allow them to earn them as a character ability if they successfully do enough SIEGE checks.
So if I were to convert a 3E class to C&C I would only have to worry about the feats that really add to the class concept, since most everything else is covered by SIEGE checks.
Skills are no big deal for me either, since I have a skill system, so the only skills, if any, I switch over to "class abilities" are ones that really define the class.
So its very doable, and like all other conversions, it gets easier with practice.
I have even converted two PrC's to use for higher level advancement. For me PrC's can't be taken until 9th level.
So its doable, and very easy when you develop a clear idea of what you want the class to be.
After all, that is the basic idea of archetype classes. A clear "original" from which all variations are derived. Once upon a time we did it with role play, now it can be done with role play and some class tweaks, or with solid rewrites.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Mulsiphix wrote:
This is exactly what I was hoping to hear. I was so unsatisfied with what I found in my research that, before learning of The Omni System, I had my eye on FUDGE and GURPS. The thing about The Omni System that I enjoyed so much was that it required the players to describe almost every aspect of what was going on around them and what their characters were doing. I find the idea of cooperative storytelling to be absolutely intoxicating. In the end FUDGE required so much work and GURPS required far too much memorization, at least for a fledgling DM. What I liked most about FUDGE was that it was modular like C&C. .....
You might look at FATE too (it is a flavor of FUDGE that has successfully been used with C&C).
AoB
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~Adaen of Bridgewater, www.highadventuregames.com
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slimykuotoan
- Greater Lore Drake
- Posts: 3669
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- Location: Nine Hells
Mulsiphix wrote:
This seems like an amazing community. The only other place I've seen such community "together-ness" is the FUDGE community. Very close knit and extremely helpful.
Yeah, we're all pretty much comrades here, so feel free to pull up a chair and stick around...
For crying out loud. Do your best with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan
I think there are a lot of similarities with the FUDGE community due to the nature of the game. FUDGE is supposed to be tweaked to one's needs....so too with C&C.
~AoB
_________________
~Adaen of Bridgewater, www.highadventuregames.com
~AoB
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~Adaen of Bridgewater, www.highadventuregames.com
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gideon_thorne
- Maukling
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- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
- Contact:
Mulsiphix wrote:
I cannot believe what amazing advice I am being offered. This seems like an amazing community. The only other place I've seen such community "together-ness" is the FUDGE community. Very close knit and extremely helpful. I appreciate this feedback very much. Thank You
We try to keep it friendly here. C&C's design philosophy includes the incorporation of many ideas and methods of play. So it goes with our forums. Granted, some of us can be more intense than others.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach