Troll Lord Games

OK, those of you who have CKed high level games have probably been painfully aware of how abusable this spell is. This is the "generate endless wealth" spell.

I like the over all concept of this spell, but I do hate how it can be abused. The version in the C&C PH is incredibly abusable. Mostly because of one sentence about transmuting materials.

"The change is permanent for inanimate objects changed into other inanimate objects as long as the general size and volume remains the same or less."

Now for those of you who have never dealt with a high level game, really think about the possibilities of that sentence.

You have to deal with things like:

Wooden Trebuchets turned into solid steel Trebuchets.

Copper bars being turned into bars of gold, platinum, mithril, and adamantium.

Quartz Crystal being turned into diamond, sapphire, emerald, or ruby.

Steel swords turned into mithril or adamantium swords.

Steel Plate mail and shields turned into Mithril and Adamantium versions.

Wooden buildings turned into solid steel construction.

Shall I go on?

I only have two ideas to "limit" this spell with so far.

Idea one: The value of any polymorphed item cannot be altered by more than 50%.

Idea #2: No object or creature can be polymorphed more than once from its "original" form. Meaning that you can't do "chain polymorphing".

For example you cannot make a 50 pound bar of copper, polymorph it into a 25 pound bar of silver, and then into a 12.5 pound bar of gold, or some such. You can only go from copper to silver, or from silver to gold, etc... and it can never be polymorphed again, except back into its original form.

Anyone else have other ideas to turn this into a "manageable" spell.

Anyone have their 2E D&D PH handy to look up the limitations in there? Are there good limitations in the 1E version?
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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Must just be me. I don't see the problem here? High level has earned a few bennies.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Never came up in my game, but food for thought. I would likely nix it from my game entirely like I did teleport and teleport without error.

Treebore wrote:
You have to deal with things like:

Wooden Trebuchets turned into solid steel Trebuchets.

Copper bars being turned into bars of gold, platinum, mithril, and adamantium.

Quartz Crystal being turned into diamond, sapphire, emerald, or ruby.

Steel swords turned into mithril or adamantium swords.

Steel Plate mail and shields turned into Mithril and Adamantium versions.

Wooden buildings turned into solid steel construction.

Shall I go on?



Are there good limitations in the 1E version?

The 1st edition version says this: "When it is cast in order to change other objects, the duration of the spell will depend on how radically removed the original was from its magicked state, as well as how different in size." The spell then lists kingdom (animal, etc.), class ("mammals, bipeds, fungi, metals, spheres, etc."), size, shape, and intelligence as criteria for the DM to use to determine the spell's duration. The spell specifically mentions that turning a twig into as sword would last only several turns, giving the impression that twig to sword is a change of both size and class. Based on that example, I would rule that metal trebuchets and structures would only last a few hours, since they have also undergone a change of class.

That's no help to reign in PCs who want to change coinage however.

On the other hand, the spell mentions that all polymorphed objects radiate magic strongly, and that the polymorph can be dispelled, so you might be able to work with that. Is that true of the C&C version? In any case, surely any PCs of sufficient level to be casting Polymorph Any Object will run into some foes with Dispel Magic and will find their adamantium weaponry rendered mundane. Also, any apprentice can cast a simple detect magic on the payment of any big business deals these PCs are involved in, exposing their fraud quite easily.

Previous versions have limits. Namely, if something is a dramatic change (ie, changing "kingdoms" for example) the effect is not permanent - it is temporary. Also, it is subject to dispel magic and radiates heavily with magic so anyone with that ability would be suspect and likely to not take it in trade (though it might work even better for the caster...) Also, there is nothing saying the caster has complete control - treat it like a wish spell. Go ahead and turn the bar of copper into a bar of mithril - you get a bar of impure (unrefined) metal, essentially worthless until its been refined which is going to be difficult, and expensive. Same thing with changing quartz to a diamond - you get one with flaws.

Breakdaddy wrote:
Never came up in my game, but food for thought. I would likely nix it from my game entirely like I did teleport and teleport without error.

I haven't done that. I don't like "nixing spells" because this is a fantasy world. I just learned to deal with such spells by discovering which spells in the book defend/block teleports and then created mundane ways to block them. Plus requiring them to have been some place and really study it to safely teleport actually helps quit a bit. Even Teleport without error, just knowing about a places existence is not enough. They still have to at least been there before. All Teleport w/o Error does is remove the chances of mishap, not the requirements of at least seeing the location before hand. So blocking scrying is just as important as, if not more so, than blocking teleport.

Plus Teleport was abused/used a lot less when the possibility of death existed (1E rules), so I am thinking of adding that back into my rules.

I agree, Gideon, that high level characters should have bennies, but turning a 50 pound bar of copper into a 50 pound bar of mithril or adamantium is far more than a "bennie". Turning suits of steel plate mail into Mithril Plate Mail is far more than just a bennie.

I mean, as written, a mage or Illusionist can use the spell to turn whole buildings of stone or wood into mithril/adamantium. The same can be done to city walls and any fortification. That is simply way to powerful.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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Treebore wrote:
I agree, Gideon, that high level characters should have bennies, but turning a 50 pound bar of copper into a 50 pound bar of mithril or adamantium is far more than a "bennie". Turning suits of steel plate mail into Mithril Plate Mail is far more than just a bennie.

I mean, as written, a mage or Illusionist can use the spell to turn whole buildings of stone or wood into mithril/adamantium. The same can be done to city walls and any fortification. That is simply way to powerful.

Well... one point. How many high level spell casters are running around? As a practical matter, considering the limitations of the so called vancian magical system, how many mithril buildings can there be? Consider it from a practical stand point.

Course, in my home brew, considering the types of technology that is available, transmutation is pretty small change.

But for more prosaic games, why change the spell? Just limit its availability to players by enforcing the rarity of acquisition.

No need to re write everything when much simpler methods are available. K.I.S.S.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

When players read the spell "rarity of acquisition" becomes bypassed with a few months of spell research. Considering the pay off, its time well spent.

As to how many high level casters there are in the world? However many I need to create challenging adventures. So far I have made 6 "good guys" known to the party/players, and they know there are at least 5 "bad guys" out there, not including priests. With the Goblyn King likely being the most powerful, and been around since well before summoning Unklar to Airhde.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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Tank wrote:
The 1st edition version says this: "When it is cast in order to change other objects, the duration of the spell will depend on how radically removed the original was from its magicked state, as well as how different in size." The spell then lists kingdom (animal, etc.), class ("mammals, bipeds, fungi, metals, spheres, etc."), size, shape, and intelligence as criteria for the DM to use to determine the spell's duration. The spell specifically mentions that turning a twig into as sword would last only several turns, giving the impression that twig to sword is a change of both size and class. Based on that example, I would rule that metal trebuchets and structures would only last a few hours, since they have also undergone a change of class.

That's no help to reign in PCs who want to change coinage however.

On the other hand, the spell mentions that all polymorphed objects radiate magic strongly, and that the polymorph can be dispelled, so you might be able to work with that. Is that true of the C&C version? In any case, surely any PCs of sufficient level to be casting Polymorph Any Object will run into some foes with Dispel Magic and will find their adamantium weaponry rendered mundane. Also, any apprentice can cast a simple detect magic on the payment of any big business deals these PCs are involved in, exposing their fraud quite easily.

I think I need to go pull my 1E PH out of the garage.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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Treebore wrote:
When players read the spell "rarity of acquisition" becomes bypassed with a few months of spell research. Considering the pay off, its time well spent.

As to how many high level casters there are in the world? However many I need to create challenging adventures. So far I have made 6 "good guys" known to the party/players, and they know there are at least 5 "bad guys" out there, not including priests. With the Goblyn King likely being the most powerful, and been around since well before summoning Unklar to Airhde.

Your the game master! Say "NO!" Or make the research so prohibitive that they would have to get lots of boodle to get to the point of learning 'transmutation'. After all, alchemists are still trying to work it out.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

gideon_thorne wrote:
Your the game master! Say "NO!" Or make the research so prohibitive that they would have to get lots of boodle to get to the point of learning 'transmutation'. After all, alchemists are still trying to work it out.

Well, I definitely could do that, but i would rather come up with some limitations to keep it under control, but still allow players to have fun with it. If I think I can't do that, then I will remove it.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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Treebore wrote:
Well, I definitely could do that, but i would rather come up with some limitations to keep it under control, but still allow players to have fun with it. If I think I can't do that, then I will remove it.

*smiles* I guess I'm odd. I don't see a lot of 15th level magic users wandering around in the baseline fantasy game. Thats really what I'm getting at.
And would polymorph any object really be a first choice for the mage who's hit that level? I guess it depends on the mage. Now, I could see a character who's had his focus on magic item creation wanting that sort of spell. But the typical adventurer? Would they not go for more pragmatic powers?

Come to think of it, that would be a basis for a cool adventure. The search of a lost archmage's lair. One who was known for creation of legendary items.

New spells, new items of research and so forth. Make spell acquisition an adventure.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

I do that too. Plus Polymorph Any Object is definitely not the typical combat spell of choice. However I run "realistic" campaigns in that the PC's are real people in a world as real as we can make it.

For an example, in my current home campaign, the PC's have been big heroes for a long time. They have made major strikes against the forces of Unklar again and again. They even made the Witch Queen (Unklars wife) run for her life. Who is not the 5/5 whimp written up in the "A" module in my campaign.

So part of their many accolades given them by the Empress of Aenochia has been lands and titles of Baron and Baroness.

I have made them spend time actually administering their lands. They were very reluctant at first, but now are very enthusiastic about it.

Baroness Jago even married a certain Monk who now rules Ludensheim again. Since they are the northernmost town/city, and likely the first to be attacked if the Unklarians ever mount a straight on attack against Aenochia, they have been looking at ways to build up the defenses of the town. Baroness Jago is now a 13th level Runemark and a 14th level Druidess. Another party member, Baroness Faranth Amter, is now an 11th level thief and 15th level mage. Baron Sylva Fromkin (of Fromkins Pass fame) is now a 13th level ranger and 13th level Cleric of Wynefar. Baron Berethor Amter (yes, grandson of the Amter family in Botkinburg, and husband to Faranth) is a 15th level Inquisitor Paladin of Tyr.

So they have a lot of magical power between them.

Things they are doing, or want to do, to Ludensheim, is to rebuild/remake the walls of the town into permanatized walls of force with stone walls "shaped" around them. They lost very little CON to do so.

They are now looking to use Polymorph Any Object. Plus the ironwood spell, and others. They are looking to make trenches filled with wooden stakes/spears, all with the strength of steel. Plus, using Rock to Mud, reversed, they will have these "spears" cemented into place.

They also started looking at Polymorph Any Object (found in a spell book several years ago), and reading it realized that as written that they could turn all kinds of things into Mithril, Adamantium, gold, platinum, etc... Including whole walls, building, etc...

They are looking at turning all of their forces armor into Mithril armor. Granted it will take time, but it is time they have due to their crippling blows given to Unklars forces.

They will also have time to turn a lot of weapons into Mithril, not to mention the Trebuchets into steel. Or Mithril. Why not?

So I have things "on hold" while I decide how to make this spell acceptable. As is they have plenty of time, and resources, to turn Ludensheim into a disgustingly well defended bastion. One which the forces of Unklar would likely just go around/bypass. However even that strategy would leave a very well fortified and equipped army at their back, not to mention interfering with supply lines.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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Ah yes... the advent of a 'golden kingdom' which can be brought crashing down by a well laid cunning plot. *smiles* Let them have their golden chariots and mithril wall, all the while the minions of Unklar slowly infiltrate the land and ring the hero's all about...
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

All hail the horned one! Let the Winter Dark return!
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John "Sir Seskis" Wright

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Perhaps, and do not take this wrong, is a reliance on literal reading of the rule, coupled with allowing players to do whatever they want: where does it say a building is a single object as opposed to many lesser objects? The same can, technically, be said of any mass-composed thing, including gems (made of individual atoms, even, if you want to be a p*i*k) so, truly, polymorph any object, depending on how nice you want to be, can be ungodly powerful, or stupidly useless... its your game - the player's just have characters there.

Its definitely that, meaning my game. I am sure that you like to have a certain consistency of logic, right? Well, so do I. So to maintain that I need to try and bring this spell in line with the rest of my logic for how spells work.

Yes, I do have such a thing. I have even written it out a good bit as a dialogue between two mages on the theory of magic. Kind of like the old Dragon articles that had Elminster, Mordenkainen, and the apprentice of Raistlin talking about this and that.

I have them discuss spell components and even theorize how spells actually work, in particular fireballs, lightning bolts, web, and Magic missile. I have even been considering polishing it up a bit and submitting it to your Domesday project.

So I have to fix this spell within the logical context of how I theorize spells work. Which is fine with me, I enjoy the challenge of such mental exercises.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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The most obvious "nerf" is to limit by area or volume. Say, 1 cubic inch / level. That would make it far from extreme. Does nothing for quartz - diamonds, but, you roll their value.... unless the PC is a gem specialist.

I was just reading the 3E version, from which the C&C version was derived. Which, btw, was a very good conversion and states things much simpler and clearly than they did in the 3E version.

However I think this part should have been kept in the C&C version:

"This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as..."

So I think once I balance this sentence with what I wrote about not changing the value by greater than 50% I think I will have a satisfactory solution.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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serleran wrote:
The most obvious "nerf" is to limit by area or volume. Say, 1 cubic inch / level. That would make it far from extreme. Does nothing for quartz - diamonds, but, you roll their value.... unless the PC is a gem specialist.

Yeah, I probably should take out the "items of comparable size" and change it to a fixed total volume/area. Probably follow the precedence of certain other spells with the "1 cubic foot per level" limitation. I'll decide once I do the math and find out what level they would have to be to convert suits of armor.

Oh, my magical "Theory of Relativity" is what defines what a "item" is. So the fact that a house/building is thought of by so many as "one object" is why I would have to define a suit of armor, a trebuchet, a house, a wall, etc... as one item. Because that is the prevailing belief/thought, which is also much of why gods have power due to the belief of their worshippers, is why I would have to define them as one object.
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