Use of Primes/TN in actual play?

james_austintx · Post by **james_austintx** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:04 pm

We are running our first C&C game this saturday, and I have a questions or two...let me see if I can put this in a way that is easy to understand.

It seems that with the way primes work (12/18) that I am going to need to either ask the players each time a save (or other check) is needed what they have for Primes (or right them down). Am I correct in this?

Or would it be easier just to have the player add +6 to the roll if its a Prime and just give them the TN?

I changed the title to reflect my questions a little better>

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:08 pm

You don't have to ask them at all, as they can tell you what they roll, and whether it is Prime or not. For example, you know the difficulty is 4, so you know that they need a total of either 16 or 22, depending on Prime. One guy rolls a 18, and gets a total of 23, non-Prime. He succeeds, because the 23 is higher than the needed 22.

I prefer to not give the difficulty to the player, and just have them give me their result.

Also, if you do it this way, the "+6" is ignored, because it is not a modifier... it is simply the base value, which is what it is supposed to be.

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:16 pm

Personally, I've found that for the most part, players prefer to add the +6. It makes it quick and easy for them and less for you to worry about because all you need is one target number for everyone and there is no chance of screwing up while you've got 1001 things to do. They add in their level as well without asking me, unless I specifically tell not to add the level. It works fine for me perfectly.

I don't know if there is any specific reason or situation where adding a +6 would be a bad idea.

I wonder if there was a reason for doing it the way the trolls designed it in the first place?

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:17 pm

What Serleran suggests is exactly the way I do this in my games. It has worked with no problems and the players understand this.

.........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:17 pm

The first time I ran C&C I went with the Tn of 18, primes get a +6. What I found with my players, at least, was it was easier for them to remember and use 12 and 18, only having to add level and ability.
_________________
Labor to keep alive in your breast that little spark of celestial fire called conscience.

-George Washington

james_austintx · Post by **james_austintx** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:19 pm

serleran wrote:
You don't have to ask them at all, as they can tell you what they roll, and whether it is Prime or not. For example, you know the difficulty is 4, so you know that they need a total of either 16 or 22, depending on Prime. One guy rolls a 18, and gets a total of 23, non-Prime. He succeeds, because the 23 is higher than the needed 22.

I prefer to not give the difficulty to the player, and just have them give me their result.

Also, if you do it this way, the "+6" is ignored, because it is not a modifier... it is simply the base value, which is what it is supposed to be.

So you say:

"Give me a Poison save."

Do they tell you: "I have a total of 25 and Con is prime."

?

I guess as the game progresses, you will learn what stats are primes for which characters.

I'm sure things will be much clearer once the game is underway.

meepo · Post by **meepo** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:19 pm

Another way you could run it is to just ask how much (if they succeed) the players have beaten their number by. If that number is more than your CL, they have made their save.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:23 pm

james_austintx wrote:
So you say:

"Give me a Poison save."

Do they tell you: "I have a total of 25 and Con is prime."

You could say this. I tell my players to roll a poison save. Players roll dice and tell me by how much they failed by or beat prime. I will then tell them the results.

........................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:36 pm

I keep a list of the players primes, they roll thier checks and usually say "I rolled 15 and its prime." It has gone pretty quick.
_________________
CK the CK
"My goddess touched me at an early age."

-Grikis Valmorgen, Paladin

The beginnings of my homebrew campaign world and info for my play by chat game:
http://kbdekker.googlepages.com/home

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:46 pm

Omote wrote:
You could say this. I tell my players to roll a poison save. Players roll dice and tell me by how much they failed by or beat prime. I will then tell them the results.

........................................Omote

FPQ

I hadn't thought of it this way. That's pretty easy actually. I'll try it some day.

Basically, it's all the same, just differrent ways to come to the same conclsion.

I say do what ever feels best.... but I will try this suggestion one evening.

Arioch · Post by **Arioch** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:48 pm

We started off with them roiling the die adding the stat modifier if any and telling me the score and whether it was prime or not, but for the most part we have evolved to them just rolling the die and adding stat modifier if any and then adding 6 if it is prime and telling me the total

Ken
_________________
Gygax is to Gaming what Kirby was to comics

Alas poor Elric I was a thousand times more evil than you

Slice N Dice: Game and Pizza Parlour

WWBYD What would Brigham Young do ?
http://www.geocities.com/J_Elric_Smith/Index.html

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:58 pm

From my experience as a player in Skath's online game, we just roll and then tell him if it is prime or not.

For some things you'll know whether or not it is prime. For example, if the rogue has to make a dex check/save, you know it is a prime (that is if you run the game bth).

R-
_________________
Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

magehammer · Post by **magehammer** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:37 pm

I use home made initiative cards that have all of the characters' stats on them (one card/player). I also have a reference card in front of me with everyone's stats in one place.

I tell the players to do whatever it is they have to do: saving throws, attribute checks, whatever. Then I tell them to add their level if they need to, and then I glance at the card to see if it is a prime or not, add the CL and tell them what happens from there. I have found having the inititative cards is invaluable.

In my homebrew modules, i already have the target numbers written into the text. Ex: "The lock is a CL 3 lock 15 / 21." that way it is even faster for me (I am not a math person).

If any of that didn't make sense, please inquire. It is just another way of doing things, I suppose. I don't have any problems and it runs smoothly and quickly.
_________________
If you are looking for something to read:
http://bit.ly/QOfso

Visit magehammer's Keep on the Weblands at http://magehammer.googlepages.com

JRR · Post by **JRR** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:56 pm

I just give primes a +6 and always use 18 as a target number. Then they just tell me what they roll. Simple and quick. IMO, this should have been the core method instead of the 12/18 method.
_________________
You face 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, 99 beserkers, and 99 beserkers.

Will your stalwart band choose to Fight, Advance, or Run?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:26 pm

It is the core method. just a different way of looking at it. a lot of gamers have issues with math, so spelling out the 12/18 thing was the way to go. Those of us who "see it" realize all you need is the 18.

Or you can look at it as 12, +6 if it isn't off of a Prime. Either way, same thing.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:03 am

I find that it's all a matter of preference and how a gaming group's particular game is run.

Using a TN of 18 and having the players with Primes add a +6 is just as valid as having two TNs.

Consider the core rule the way it's written in the book and adding the +6 as an optional rule varient.

From my experience, it looks like the players around me who are used to (and comfortable) with D&D 3.x have no problem what-so-ever adding the +6... I mean considering all the funky rules and bonuses... what's another +6?

Personally I use the 18 TN and add a +6 for primes.

Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

johns · Post by **johns** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:45 am

I just make sure they know what they're trying to beat - a 12 or 18 - and then have them tell me what they beat it by. I then tell them whether or not they succeeded. After the first session, my group internalized the 12 and 18, and things have run smoothly ever since.