Thief skills?

[Treebore]

Why does "thieving" have to be a list of several skills? Why can't it be called "Thieving"? Then define that as covering any action that the CK would classify as "thieving", such as picking pockets, picking locks, finding and removing traps, etc....

Same goes for being "sneaky". Why isn't it just called "sneakiness" or Obfuscation and then defined as, "Any action a character takes to avoid detection, such as moving silently, hiding in shadows, disguising themselves, etc..."

Wouldn't that be easier? Wouldn't it also free up page space to be used to better explain other aspects of the game?

Would it some how break the game?

I think I feel another change to my house rules document coming on.
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[DangerDwarf]

Thievery:Use this skill to disable traps, open locks, pick pockets and preform other sleights of hand.
Stealth: Use this skill to hide and move silently.

Works great in 4e.

Not really a necessity in C&C though since the characters aren't forced to spend skill points in those differing areas. So, changing it does absolutely nothing in C&C. The roll will be the exact same regardless.

[Treebore]

Yep, exactly why I am thinking of just rewriting it. I don't need to worry about it with my current players, they already understand what is going on. So I would just write it up this way for any new players I might have down the road. Easier to understand, and hopefully easier to remember.
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[DangerDwarf]

My only suggestion then would to not tie either of those particular skills to a specific attribute. Different measures call for different abilities.

A thieving roll could involve quick reaction, agility based dex checks to defeat a trap or pick a lock or keen intelligence to defeat the complex mechanism of a trap.

Using Obfuscation to sneak down a shadowy alley and using obfuscation to blend into a crowd to avoid the city guard require different ways of doing it.

[Treebore]

Good point. In my case I don't have to worry about the attribute Prime, since my house rules say that any class skill is treated as if having the relevant attribute Prime, even if it isn't.

So just say all checks made related to class related skills is base TN 12.
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[rabindranath72]

I toyed with this idea for a Classic D&D game. The 4e skills are excellent for this:

Thievery (dex):Use this skill to disable traps, open locks, pick pockets and preform other sleights of hand.

Stealth (dex): Use this skill to hide and move silently.

Athletics (str): Climb, Jump, Run etc.

Perception (wis): find traps, spot secret doors etc.

I used it for two games, and it worked perfectly.

[DangerDwarf]

Treebore wrote:
In my case I don't have to worry about the attribute Prime, since my house rules say that any class skill is treated as if having the relevant attribute Prime, even if it isn't.

Yeah, I forgot you use auto-primes for class abilities. Only thing it may effect then is the attribute bonus for the roll.

[serleran]

Sounding like that classless character creation document I created...

There is a reason each ability is separate -- if you decided to create a new class, you might have one that can pick locks, but not pockets. You might have someone who can climb walls but knows nothing about traps. Each of these abilities affects the amount of XP needed for the class - it means very little at low levels (almost nothing, in fact), but over time, it adds to a pretty good amount.

So, depending on your house rules, it might mean nothing (like it seems) or it could be very important. But, before you go willy-nilly on it, you should know what it means.

[Treebore]

serleran wrote:
Sounding like that classless character creation document I created...

There is a reason each ability is separate -- if you decided to create a new class, you might have one that can pick locks, but not pockets. You might have someone who can climb walls but knows nothing about traps. Each of these abilities affects the amount of XP needed for the class - it means very little at low levels (almost nothing, in fact), but over time, it adds to a pretty good amount.

So, depending on your house rules, it might mean nothing (like it seems) or it could be very important. But, before you go willy-nilly on it, you should know what it means.

True, so if I do use or create such a class I'll just have to clarify it only has that one aspect of thieving, sneaking, whatever. So I don't foresee it as becoming a problem, but if it does I'll definitely change it.
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[gideon_thorne]

Treebore wrote:
Why does "thieving" have to be a list of several skills? Why can't it be called "Thieving"? Then define that as covering any action that the CK would classify as "thieving", such as picking pockets, picking locks, finding and removing traps, etc....

Same goes for being "sneaky". Why isn't it just called "sneakiness" or Obfuscation and then defined as, "Any action a character takes to avoid detection, such as moving silently, hiding in shadows, disguising themselves, etc..."

.

Because every thief is not equally good at every type of thief ability. Trying to mash it down into one umbrella most likely would take away that 'flavor' I think. Just IMHO anyhow.
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Peter Bradley

[DangerDwarf]

Yeah, but with the SIEGE engine BTB, there is no differentiation in ability between the thief skills that fall under the same attribute. So thats not really an issue.

[gideon_thorne]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, but with the SIEGE engine BTB, there is no differentiation in ability between the thief skills that fall under the same attribute. So thats not really an issue.

Except for Primes bear in mind.
Thats a pretty big difference.
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Peter Bradley

[Zebulon]

My suggestion would be to combine the three ideas below together. This would be:

1) Anyone can attempt anything. A Wizard wants to climb a tree or a fighter cut a purse ? Just make an attribute check at the CL determined by CK. Add level and substract armor penalty to the check, and roll under Siege method as normal. Except I would make it work that way: 12 or 18 is the default CL considered a "difficult" CL. Tasks considered average or easy would usually not require a roll; they would be automatic success if character has enough time to do it. Only if circumstances require it, a roll would be asked for average or easy things. For example, if unarmored wizard has to climb that tree, okay he does it; however then cmes fighter in armor pursued by monsters and thus in danger and hurry, so he would have to roll despite tree is seen as average CL to climb. Now, very difficult would impose a CL 4 (or 16/22), heroic CL8 (or 20/24), and almost impossible CL 12 (or 24/28). Impossible remains impossible, so characters may not attempt it.

2) Rogues get bonuses when they do thievery, obfuscation and acrobatics. This bonus is +2 at 1st level, +3 at 3rd level, +4 at 5th level, +5 at 7th level, +6 at 9th level, and +7 at 11th level.

-- Thievery: everything aimed at robbing/thieving such as open-locks, picking pockets, finding and removing traps, etc., but also appraising loot, determining opportunities of robbery (gather information), etc.

-- Obfuscation: hiding, moving silently, concealing things on his body, disguising, etc.

-- Acrobatics: climbing, jumping, tumbling, etc.

3) Assassins are reworked as follows: get d8 HD and cleric BtH, then their bonuses to thievery, obfuscation and acrobatics is +1 at 1st level, +2 at 4th level, +3 at 8th level, and +4 at 12th level.
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[DangerDwarf]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Except for Primes bear in mind.
Thats a pretty big difference.

Yeah, but all the skills that fall under that prime have the exact same ability level.

I understand what you're saying though, thats why I'm not a fan of having all class abilities being treated as having a prime. It takes away what differentiation there is.

[Treebore]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, but all the skills that fall under that prime have the exact same ability level.

I understand what you're saying though, thats why I'm not a fan of having all class abilities being treated as having a prime. It takes away what differentiation there is.

Your still forced to have a fair amount of similarity though. Every thief has to take the class Prime. So by and large all thieves are nearly "identical".
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[Treebore]

Zebulon wrote:
My suggestion would be to combine the three ideas below together. This would be:

1) Anyone can attempt anything. A Wizard wants to climb a tree or a fighter cut a purse ? Just make an attribute check at the CL determined by CK. Add level and substract armor penalty to the check, and roll under Siege method as normal. Except I would make it work that way: 12 or 18 is the default CL considered a "difficult" CL. Tasks considered average or easy would usually not require a roll; they would be automatic success if character has enough time to do it. Only if circumstances require it, a roll would be asked for average or easy things. For example, if unarmored wizard has to climb that tree, okay he does it; however then cmes fighter in armor pursued by monsters and thus in danger and hurry, so he would have to roll despite tree is seen as average CL to climb. Now, very difficult would impose a CL 4 (or 16/22), heroic CL8 (or 20/24), and almost impossible CL 12 (or 24/28). Impossible remains impossible, so characters may not attempt it.

2) Rogues get bonuses when they do thievery, obfuscation and acrobatics. This bonus is +2 at 1st level, +3 at 3rd level, +4 at 5th level, +5 at 7th level, +6 at 9th level, and +7 at 11th level.

-- Thievery: everything aimed at robbing/thieving such as open-locks, picking pockets, finding and removing traps, etc., but also appraising loot, determining opportunities of robbery (gather information), etc.

-- Obfuscation: hiding, moving silently, concealing things on his body, disguising, etc.

-- Acrobatics: climbing, jumping, tumbling, etc.

3) Assassins are reworked as follows: get d8 HD and cleric BtH, then their bonuses to thievery, obfuscation and acrobatics is +1 at 1st level, +2 at 4th level, +3 at 8th level, and +4 at 12th level.

I find that when a wizard wants to do something that is a "thief ability" using the SIEGE the way the PH suggests works rather well. Not getting to add your class level does make a big difference. A huge difference when you get to higher levels.

So if a Wizard has a DEX Prime, they can attempt to walk that tightrope with a TN 12, they just won't get to add their level to doing so. So that 4th level thief is still going to be noticeably better at walking that rope than a 4th level wizard. At 10th level the thief will be much better, and so on.
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[gideon_thorne]

Treebore wrote:
Your still forced to have a fair amount of similarity though. Every thief has to take the class Prime. So by and large all thieves are nearly "identical".

Well, gentlemen, that is one reason why I suggested this

All my sheer genius ideas always have applications that aren't immediately obvious... Doesn't even have to be in percentages either. Just let thieves assign 9 points per level wherever they wish to thief abilities.
And since we're talking house rules. No class in my game has to take the class prime if they don't wish too. I think it makes for a lot more interesting combinations of characters if primes are assigned wherever.
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Peter Bradley

[DangerDwarf]

Treebore wrote:
Your still forced to have a fair amount of similarity though. Every thief has to take the class Prime. So by and large all thieves are nearly "identical".

Yes, but why kill the variations.

Most of the "main" thief skills are covered by the auto-dex prime. Your other choices however give you some good variance in thief types.

My alert, elven thief has a dex/wis prime.

My dwarven troubleshooter is more of a dex/int split.

What about that human river quarter thug who forgoes the int or wis prime and goes for dex/str/con.

If you give all of the thieves auto prime for class ability rolls, then the thug is just as good at disarming traps as the dwarven troubleshooter.

[Treebore]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yes, but why kill the variations.

Most of the "main" thief skills are covered by the auto-dex prime. Your other choices however give you some good variance in thief types.

My alert, elven thief has a dex/wis prime.

My dwarven troubleshooter is more of a dex/int split.

What about that human river quarter thug who forgoes the int or wis prime and goes for dex/str/con.

If you give all of the thieves auto prime for class ability rolls, then the thug is just as good at disarming traps as the dwarven troubleshooter.

True, but this is where my house rules come in to mess things up again. If they want to become a troubleshooter there are a number of things the players can do. One is to talk to me about the concept and I'll see what I can offer them.

OR

They can become a troubleshooter in game by making SIEGE checks. For example it can take 1d4 minutes (my rule, not the books) to pick a lock, or btb it takes 1 turn (1 minute) to search an area that is 10 by 10.

Someone wanting to become a troubleshooter can make a SIEGE check to do this stuff very fast. Succeed often enough and they can gain it as a class/character ability, meaning do such things fast without a SIEGE check.

Another approach I would consider would be to refer to the 2E Troubleshooter kit ( I am pretty sure there was one) and see about blending it with the Thief class as presented in the PH.
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[Treebore]

gideon_thorne wrote:
And since we're talking house rules. No class in my game has to take the class prime if they don't wish too. I think it makes for a lot more interesting combinations of characters if primes are assigned wherever.

I have actually been bouncing this idea around for awhile.
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