Level? Draining of Undead

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:30 pm

One thing in allllll the decades that I've been playing D&D and now C&C has bothered me. The way undead drain levels away from characters...yet every description reads as if affecting life energy of the victim. Hmmm....levels equal experiences and skills gained in life....CON, STR, and HD represent a more direct representation of life energy, at least IMO. To some degree DEX falls into this as well...or rather, the life draining affects the physical aspects of the victim, not their knowledge base.

So I have to ask...why has it ever been levels attacked?

I'm thinking of tossing the whole level issue out and replacing it with;

The life drain effect of the undead reduces CON, STR, and DEX by -1 for a failed save against the effects. Likewise, if the save is failed, the undead's physical attack (if any) is increased by +1d6 (unholy damage per se)

To me this is a more accurate representation of the effects inherent to descriptions rather than mechanics without giving up any creature danger/risk.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:42 pm

Levels represent both actual vitality (hit points, endurance, luck and memory) as well as experience and capability - it is a very abstract measure of all things that define the fictional character's "life." This makes the undead that do such things very frightening, because they are not merely stealing "energy" but everything associated to it - that is why you have to regain the lost level (and why restoring said levels via magic is supposed to be very hard to do.) By changing the mechanic, you reduce the effectiveness of the undead, as each touch reduces your ability to further resist - they slowly whittle you into submission and inability to fight back: a fighter drained to 1st level is nowhere near as "strong" as he was when he was at 7th, for example... but, if he's still got 1 Constitution, he is - and that is the critical factor.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:17 pm

[quote="serleran"]Levels represent both actual vitality (hit points, endurance, luck and memory) as well as experience and capability - it is a very abstract measure of all things that define the fictional character's "life." This makes the undead that do such things very frightening, because they are not merely stealing "energy" but everything associated to it - that is why you have to regain the lost level (and why restoring said levels via magic is supposed to be very hard to do.) By changing the mechanic, you reduce the effectiveness of the undead, as each touch reduces your ability to further resist - they slowly whittle you into submission and inability to fight back: a fighter drained to 1st level is nowhere near as "strong" as he was when he was at 7th, for example... but, if he's still got 1 Constitution, he is - and that is the critical factor.[/quote]

Okay...put like that, it really does put the ability into an understandable context. Granted, I'm still a bit leary about the memory bit...but I think I see the intent a lot better. Thanks.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:14 pm

I let them whittle down Con points instead of levels.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:31 pm

Here is another house rule that can soften the blow.

ENERGY DRAINS:

When hit by a creature that energy drains you get a save. The save is CON based, CL is equal to HD of the creature. If you fail the save then you lose a level and HP loss is equal to your HD average plus your CON bonus, if any So if you are a fighter you lose 5+CON bonus in hit points.

Still, all is not lost. It takes creatures about 24 hours to fully digest your life energy in my games. So if you kill the creature, or creatures, who stole your life force within 24 hours of them doing so your life force will be released and will find its way back to your body. You must be within 10 feet of the creature when it is destroyed for this to happen automatically. For every 10 feet beyond 10 feet there is a cumulative -2 penalty to your CHA (or CON, whichever the CK decides is most appropriate and beneficial to the player) save for your life force to find and return to you.

So if you are 30 feet away when the creature is destroyed you must make a save at -4 to get your life force back. 10 feet or less no save is required.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:32 pm

I think Serl's point is that with just the CON loss, only the con modifier is affected vs the actual saving throw base. So his point about a 7th level Ftr with a 1 CON able to able resist better than a 1st lvl Ftr seems to be valid.

And the damage issue, the loss of a whole HD with each level probably is there...though I think this is probably the easiest bit to mitigate for in a level context.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:03 am

I usually don't throw undead that do level drains at 1st level PC's. Level drains like Vancian magic is something I never liked in all my years running and playing these types of games.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:12 am

I don't think 1st lvl's are expected to go up against such undead, but it can happen, especially if simply running random encounter type adventures.

I think I'll modify my house rule proposal to include a cumulative -1 to the CON save for each successful "level drain" to account for the lowered resist. I know I have a very hard time simply 'stealing' xp from characters based on an abstract model effect despite its contextual basis.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:27 am

Actually, I got to be immediately fond of the 'negative level' concept put forth in the Alpha version of the Pathfinder RPG:

Quote:
Negative Levels and Level Drain

Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to bestow negative levels. These levels cause a character to take a number of penalties, but they never result in actual level loss.

For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative 1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-

dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creatures negative levels equals or exceeds it total Hit Dice, it dies.

A creature with negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.

Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like negative levels but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. These permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equals its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.

It could be used almost identically for C&C and the only consideration is the 'fixed' HP loss. Wizards, Sorcerers, and Rogues all have a higher HD in the Pathfinder RPG compared to C&C. I'd probably take the class HD of the affected character and divide the max by two. A fighter would thus lose 5 ... a Rogue would lose 3 and a Wizard would lose 2.

M
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:07 am

Or make the hp loss equal to the HD of the undead doing the draining. Thus a more powerful undead, with its stronger negative energy ties, would inflict more harm than a weaker undead.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:11 am

Go0gleplex wrote:
Or make the hp loss equal to the HD of the undead doing the draining. Thus a more powerful undead, with its stronger negative energy ties, would inflict more harm than a weaker undead.

Hmm... I like that!

I like it a lot!

Thanks!

M
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:11 am

"Negative levels" are not new to Pathfinder; that is a near direct copy of the way d20 handles the concept, including the saves. I have to say that I find it very wussified, personally - undead are not something you walk away from unscathed, but I am biased toward liking them...

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:46 am

serleran wrote:
"Negative levels" are not new to Pathfinder; that is a near direct copy of the way d20 handles the concept, including the saves. I have to say that I find it very wussified, personally - undead are not something you walk away from unscathed, but I am biased toward liking them...

Trust me... it has nothing to with making them 'less' of a threat. It has to do with bookkeeping. The only significant difference between (the way we played) D&D 3.x and other previous incarnations of the game and this variant is physically losing a level.

Obviously this a bit easier to handle in C&C since there are no skill points or feats to worry about. However, with 3.x we've always handled a level drain much the same way that classic versions of the game handled it. In other words impacting on everything with the effect being immediate. I often forget that the level drain in 3.x (by the book) is marginally friendlier than the classic games.

However, though I'm not claiming that this is in any way original, the net result is still the same. A fourth level character who gets level drained 4 or more times is dead. How is that any less deadly?
I guess, if anything, the C&C setup lends itself to negative levels a bit more so simply because of how the Siege mechanic works when it comes to character levels.

M
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:01 am

Trust me, if CON is not their Prime, and it often isn't, they fear energy draining undead even with my house rule. They just like that they can fight to get "their life back" before its too late.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:55 pm

I've ran into those players that become extremely...'offended'...when you tell them they've lost levels. For some reason putting things into more of a damage context seems much more palatable to them.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:14 pm

While I will freely admit that it is, at times, less than fun to lose years of work and effort to a single touch, it is not much different than losing years of work and effort to the roll of a single die in other occasions (or, sometimes, not even a roll at all.) If you are a player, you know these are risks for your character. You accept them the moment you create the character.

To reduce the risks is to make the character less heroic, in some ways. Changing the nature of the challenge mans the rewards are not as savory, not as earned.

But, that's just my view. Obviously other people will play it differently, and that's fine, for their games.

C&C had very particular design goals. That is why undead drain levels. Well, that, and I get to write the rules for it.