Dual-classing and Primary Attributes

[Aqua Vitae]

This question cropped up with me while considering the issue of dual classing and primary attributes. I just scrapped a skill system of my own because my own readings conveyed that such was unnecessary; I'm determined to keep the SIEGE engine intact for my world, and house-ruling (with the exception of classes!) to a minimum. Perforce, I'd like to retain primary/secondary attribute distinctions (against a brief idea that cropped up with me, in using a generic 15 challenge base vs. the 12/18 for pr./sec. att.).

Anyway...

Let's say you've got a 1st level Fighter, and as such Str is a primary att. Let's say he chooses Dex and Con as his other primary att's.

What if he dual-classes later to Wizard? Does that mean he know has four primary att's? Or, does he still only have three (Str, Dex, Con)?

Not sure what to do, but I have considered a house rule on this.

In my own rule, classes still have a Prime attribute, but it is the choice of the player that determines which ones their PC has. If a player chooses a class with a different prime attribute than one of his primary attributes, he suffers an EPP penalty of -10%.

Thus, starting players are default encouraged to pick a class that will not give them an EPP penalty...and of course, most players will not be so dumb as to choose Int, Wis, and Cha and THEN pick Fighter as their class.

So, in this house-ruled scenario, primary attributes are class independent but still functionally relevant to class. A PC with Str, Dex, & Con as primary att's who is a Fighter that later multi-classes to Wizard will suffer a -10% EPP penalty as a Wizard, but if he gets EPP as a Fighter, he will not suffer that EPP penalty.

[Aqua Vitae]

And I just got my hardback copies of the PHB & M&T. Now I feel much more like a true Castle Keeper! I'm afraid that my collegiate studies will just have to suffer for a day or two as I ponder my new castle paraphernalia!

A couple of aesthetic impressions:

I really like the Ogre picture. Ogres are my favorite humanoid monsters, and this is the best Ogre picture I've ever seen! It makes me want to send an Ogre to decimate my fledgling party! He he.

The Ghost is freaky. I have seen a goodly number of Ghost illustrations in various editions, and this is the best! It has a powerful 1E AD&D feel.

And speaking of such, the Shadow and Xorn pictures are also very nice! I would love to have seen more artwork from these guys. It's so old school and AD&Dsh that it causes my heart to ache.

[Go0gleplex]

I would think that a simple way (mechanic) to resolve this (not having read more than this post on the subject) would be to only allow the PC to choose a second class with a Prime that matches those they already have. So if a Rogue (class prime Dex) shooses to have Int as their second Prime, that would allow Wizard or Illusionist as a second class for purposes of Dual. In the case of Humans or even Half Elves (Human heritage) with a third Prime, then they would have a greater amount of career choices.

an idea, if nothing more.
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[Treebore]

Go0 has the right of it. They can only dual class to something they already have a Prime in. So in your scenario they would not be able to become a wizard.
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[Aqua Vitae]

Treebore wrote:
Go0 has the right of it. They can only dual class to something they already have a Prime in. So in your scenario they would not be able to become a wizard.

Eh...that's a bit strong! I am imagining the poor aging Cleric who, with his primary att's of Int, Wis, and Con, gets roused after seeing a knightly joust and then wants to become a Knight. He couldn't under this scheme.

I'm inclined to house-rule this as such:

Primary attributes are determined by initial player choice as the PC is being created. Class choice is affected, but not determined, by primary attributes. A PC with Str, Dex, & Con as primary attributes can choose whatever class he likes, but if he picks a class with a prime attribute other than one of his primary attributes, he suffers a -10% EPP in that class.

If he later dual classes, and his new class happens to have a prime attribute that he has as a primary attribute, then no EPP penalty while advancing and gaining levels within that particular class.

[Aqua Vitae]

Wait a minute...I'm a Peck? That's my status?! I liked Carrion better... he he.

[shadoes]

I would probably just say that all his class ability checks would be at 18 base per the SIEGE rules. Would make things difficult but not impossible for some odd class pairings

[Treebore]

Aqua Vitae wrote:
Eh...that's a bit strong! I am imagining the poor aging Cleric who, with his primary att's of Int, Wis, and Con, gets roused after seeing a knightly joust and then wants to become a Knight. He couldn't under this scheme.

I'm inclined to house-rule this as such:

Primary attributes are determined by initial player choice as the PC is being created. Class choice is affected, but not determined, by primary attributes. A PC with Str, Dex, & Con as primary attributes can choose whatever class he likes, but if he picks a class with a prime attribute other than one of his primary attributes, he suffers a -10% EPP in that class.

If he later dual classes, and his new class happens to have a prime attribute that he has as a primary attribute, then no EPP penalty while advancing and gaining levels within that particular class.

I'm sure that would work, but I think I would make the percentile 20%. Why? Its not like I want to encourage them to multi class or dual class.

Besides, Primes are an abstraction of what the PC is good at doing, so why would they take up a class/profession that they would suck at? So in this case I would go against my normal house rule (all class skills are treated as Prime, even if it isn't) and treat all class related checks as non prime, IE TN 18 base. Between a 20% XP penalty and all their knowledge and class checks being TN 18 they must really want to be a wizard, etc...
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[Aqua Vitae]

Treebore wrote:
I'm sure that would work, but I think I would make the percentile 20%. Why? Its not like I want to encourage them to multi class or dual class.

Well, I handle this problem (of gorging on classes!) in this way:

Players already know of my house rule that choosing a class with a conflicting Prime Attribute incurs -10% EPP. What is more, if a player in my world dual classes (I don't allow multi-classing) they automatically get a -10% EPP to advancement in all of their classes.

Hence, if an Elf with Primary Attributes of Int, Wis, and Cha chooses Fighter as his class, he gains the -10% penalty to EPP.

Let's say he later multi-classes to Knight. Though Knight has Cha as a Prime Attribute, the Elf suffers -10% EPP in that class, simply because he's dual classed, and he also suffers a -20% in any future advancement as a Fighter (-10% for conflicitng Prime Attribute plus -10% for being dual classed).

Quote:
Besides, Primes are an abstraction of what the PC is good at doing, so why would they take up a class/profession that they would suck at?

I agree. And if they did take it (in your campaign, knowing they'd have the -20% EPP) they must really be wanting to take it for the thematic aspects of the class...at least I'd hope.

Quote:
So in this case I would go against my normal house rule (all class skills are treated as Prime, even if it isn't) and treat all class related checks as non prime, IE TN 18 base. Between a 20% XP penalty and all their knowledge and class checks being TN 18 they must really want to be a wizard, etc...

Glad I've spurred some thinking on this! I may consider drafting some more ideas into an article for Crusader...or something...I don't know...this is a worthwhile issue!

[Aqua Vitae]

shadoes wrote:
I would probably just say that all his class ability checks would be at 18 base per the SIEGE rules. Would make things difficult but not impossible for some odd class pairings

Yep...In my case, Primary Attribute is chosen prior to class (class won't determine Primary Attribute, in other words). Obviously, the Player will be thinking about what class he's gonna pick while choosing his Primary Attribute, which is fine. However, if he does dual-class later on into a class that has a different Prime Attribute than one of his Primary Attributes, well, he must've really wanted that class, because he'll still have to live with the Challenge Base of 18 in that class's abilities!

Thanks all!

[bighara]

I used to use a multi-class house rule where it required the PC to have the necessary Primes. It seemed to work OK for us.

[DangerDwarf]

I would allow them to dual class into whatever they chose, no new primes. I allow primes to be chosen instead of assigned by class anyways. As for dual classing into a class in which they don't have a prime? Thats kinda like the real world where people aren't always optimally suited to what they choose to do.

[Aqua Vitae]

DangerDwarf wrote:
I would allow them to dual class into whatever they chose, no new primes.

I agree.

Quote:
I allow primes to be chosen instead of assigned by class anyways. As for dual classing into a class in which they don't have a prime? Thats kinda like the real world where people aren't always optimally suited to what they choose to do.

Couldn't agree more.

The problem that I see what barring PCs from classes with different Primes is that it is just a little harsh. I expect my players to have to put up with EPP penalties for dual-classing and for conflicting Primes, but the way I see it is if they really want the class, they'll do so. If not, hey, they have three Primary Attributes anyway...there are several other classes to pick or, ideally, they'll just decide to remain single-class.

[Foxroe]

As already mentioned, allow any dual class combo, but they just don't get the new prime. So your holy geezer can joust all he wants, it will just be at a CB of 18 (at least he can add his level to the check ).

If you're looking for an "official"-ish ruling, Gary's dual-class setup from CZ states that prime attributes do not restrict class choice. The rules are in a free PDF available on the TLG website.

-Fox

[serleran]

Considering class mandates Prime, it is impossible to be that class without the Prime associated, unless one is altering that fundamental aspect of the rules as written. Therefore, to multiclass, it is obvious that all Primes be held - where it gets complex is a "double-Prime" character, which, generally, should not be allowed (ie, no rogue-assassins.) If I were to do this, I would allow only two classes, ever, for either humans or not, and either could "dual class" after 1st level, if training became possible - why two classes? C&C classes tend to be a little more potent in some respects, and the inherent flexibility of "assumed abilities" is quite high, so I would not want someone capable of almost everything by virtue of class selection alone (ie, a fighter-wizard-rogue) and would have them rely on their ability to play and use what is allowed to them, rather than the "system."

Beyond that, I would likely use an AD&D approach, or just create a new class that encompasses what the character wanted to do, and ignore the entire concept of "multiclassed" characters.

[shadoes]

Not sure I agree there. Technically the rules just state that there is one prime attribute for each class. Not that you have to have that prime. It implies that however in saying you can then choose others....
But since the game is not set up to multiclass this whole discussion revolves around going outside the written rules anyway Altering the fundemental rules as you mention.

Also though I like the idea of just creating new classes with the ability list you want. I have done something similar with my version of the shaman. It is a druid/ranger hybrid with a couple added abilities. Still working on fixing up the spell list though.

[shadoes]

Just for giggles here are the rules I am going to use in my new game for multiclassing. As always these are open to change and flux One thing I am toying with is just having the levels combine for a total level for SEIGE checks but that might be a bit overpowering...thoughts?

Multiclassing rules:

These rules apply to any player who wishes to add a second or more classes to his character.

Any character can multiclass. Adding a class does NOT automatically add a new prime attribute. If you want the prime attribute of the class to apply you must choose a class that has a prime attribute you have already chosen.

Note that if a class is chosen where the character has a non prime ability then every skill check that uses that Attribute will be more difficult.

The character gains the abilities of the new class. All penalties however will apply, weapon restrictions, armor, etc. For instance a Fighter/Wizard would suffer penalties for armor worn as well weapon restrictions.

Any time a character gains enough exp to gain a level he/she can then choose to gain an level in any of the classes they have but NOT both at the same time. Any extra exp are kept as progress towards further levels.

When you add a level in a class you gain the hit die for THAT class plus any new abilites granted due to level.

I am 2nd level fighter and I want to add a level of wizard. I would not then gain any fighter hitdice for my new level but would gain the wizard abilites and the wizard hitdice(d4 +con bonus) for a level.

A multiclass character always uses his/her best BtH number.

When you make SIEGE checks that allow the adding of level you must add the level of the class the ability comes from. Using the above example the character would add 2 for fighter abilities and 1 for wizard abilities.

It is recommended that the CK have the character undertake a quest of sorts to find a person willing to train them in their new class.

[Aqua Vitae]

shadoes wrote:
Just for giggles here are the rules I am going to use in my new game for multiclassing. [ . . . ]

Looks good! The only thing I am curious about:

shadoes wrote:
Any time a character gains enough exp to gain a level he/she can then choose to gain an level in any of the classes they have but NOT both at the same time. Any extra exp are kept as progress towards further levels.

I take this to mean basically that you dole out XP to players and then they decide where to actually apply it?

I understand that XP can't tip a PC in your world over the next level in more than one class, but can your players put XP in several classes at once? In other words, can a dual class Fighter/Wizard that has made it to the next level as a Fighter still throw a few XP into his Wizard, so long as it doesn't push him to next level as Wizard?

[shadoes]

The way I envision it is this.. XP goes into a pool and once they gain enough to level they apply it.

Example a fighter needs 2001 exp to be level 2...and 4001 to gain level 3..so from 2002 to 4000 that exp is essentially just sitting there in the pool.

A wizard needs 2602 and 5201 for the same levels... so lets say that fighter gains 4004 exp... enough to push him over to level 3 fighter IF HE CHOOSES. However if he is decided to gain a wizard level he needs 5201 and thus would not apply that EXP.

In game terms it would mean he was spending more time studying magic than increasing his martial skills.

If say the character ended up with 5400 XP and gained a wizard level he would still have that extra 199 in the pool. If he gained 5400 and decided that no he does not want a wizard level he wants a fighter level he would apply the needed XP to get to 4001 and then the remainder would stay in the XP pool.

Basically I am not forcing the player to level any time he gets the need xp or else in this case the second class would never go up cause he would always hit a fighter level first.

Follow?

And my players have also talked me into letting them combine BtH values. we will see how that goes. If I feel it makes them to powerful I will put it back as I wrote it.

[Treebore]

Allowing them to stack levels and BtH is too powerful, and unfair. Now if everyone is taking multiple classes, then it will at least be fair among the group.

If you want to see what I mean make up a 60,000 XP fighter 30,000\thief 30,000 5/6 and compare it to a straight 60,000 XP fighter, who is 6th level only.

Straight 6th level character is +6 levels to save and +6 to BtH.

The fighter thief is +11 to saves, and +8 to BtH.

They both have 60,000 XP's. Very unbalanced/unfair.

This is how I look at levels. That +2 BtH the thief has is the same fighting experience/skills/knowledge the fighter had at 2nd level when his BtH was +2.

Same thing with respect to levels and saving versus spells, they both covered almost identical ground.

So let them use the best BtH and their highest level, but do not let them stack them.

There are plenty of other reasons to go dual or multi class, if the players thinik they are being cheated, too bad. They are power gaming anyways. I have played plenty of dual classed characters and even a couple of multi class characters. Why? Even though they were a level or two behind the single classed characters I could do a heck of lot more with a lot more options.

Think about it. A 60,000 XP dual classed fighter thief takes on the 60,000 XP straight fighter, who do you think is going to win? The fighter thief almost every time, especially if they have some decent poisons on their weapons.

Now compare the fighter/cleric versus the straight fighter?

See what I am saying?

Dual classing is UGLY. So give best BtH, highest level, worst armor restrictions, and only the HD from one of the classes, likely the fighter, and thats it. They don't need anything more to be kick butt. Oh, and they divide XP evenly at all times if they start in both or all classes at the same time.

If they pick up a class then freeze their higher level classes until the new one catches up, and they still determine HD off of whatever their "first" class was. If they want the HD of the new class they have to agree to forever freeze the levels/XP of their old class(es). FOREVER. Even if they lose levels permanently to energy drain.

Thats my advice and how I do it. Now I should copy this to my house rules document so I don't have to write it out again.
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[Go0gleplex]

I remember back when (violin music plays in the background) running multi-class characters for D&D. The character would use the best BtH, save, etc...but also be limited by the restrictions of each class. So if I was running a Thief/Mage...I'd have the combat skills of the thief but be unable to wear armor.

sounds unfair...but it seriously encourages someone to get inventive with their character. My F/M was a pansy til about 5th level...but that didn't stop him from running a scam that eventually caused the local economy to stutter quite seriously. And it was all perfectly rules legal.
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Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

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[Foxroe]

Go0gleplex wrote:
I remember back when (violin music plays in the background) running multi-class characters for D&D. The character would use the best BtH, save, etc...but also be limited by the restrictions of each class. So if I was running a Thief/Mage...I'd have the combat skills of the thief but be unable to wear armor.

sounds unfair...but it seriously encourages someone to get inventive with their character. My F/M was a pansy til about 5th level...but that didn't stop him from running a scam that eventually caused the local economy to stutter quite seriously. And it was all perfectly rules legal.

Yep! This is the way I like to do it.

I've always felt that the purpose of multi-classing was to open up a few more role-playing options for the players and allow for new avenues of character exploration... and not for making uber-characters.

-Fox

[shadoes]

they are not stacking levels just Bth.

Any class abilities go off of the class level in questions plus in the case of a 5/6 fighter/thief for encounter purposes they are still consider 11th level. They also have less hit points than the straight fighter. Since they would have gained 5 levels of thief hit die.

That 6th level fighter is +6 5th level thief is +2 so a total of +8 BtH. Compare to a straight 11th level fighter who is +11. Or straight rogue +4. So better than a rogue but not as good as a straight fighter. Thus indicating the skills increased but not as much as the specialist.

As I said I agreed to let the players try it with the caveat that as soon as I felt they were overpowered we would go the other way.

Saving throws was the part of the text that apparently did not copy. They will get the best one there not combined levels. And this I did not move on. I will give but then they have to give to. Does it make sense completely? Nope. But then it is a fantasy
In the end they also have to live with the fact that if they have a bunch of multiclass characters then odds are the same will go for the bad guys. I have seen this sort of thing take care of itself many times in play simple by making the bad guys as good as the good guys. Then suddenly they go "wow that IS powerful".

Again I am willing to try it and see how it goes. If it unbalances I will alter it back. Simple as that.

[shadoes]

You know though on further reflection Treebore I do think you are quite close to the mark. I will have to see if I can hash the two methods together and come up with something that will work for my players and for me.

[Treebore]

I did misread the levels adding part, but I think that talking about a 5/6 character as 11th level is not the way to look at it. Its the XP that matter, not the level. I think that having 60,000 XP and only being a 6th level fighter compared to being a 5th level Fighter and 6 level thief shows that dual, or multi classing, makes characters more powerful for the same amount of XPs.

That is one of the many things I liked about 3E, I think they came up with the best way to keep combining of class and levels from being so much more powerful than a single classed character.

Take my home game. One character has stayed single classed. The Paladin. He may be 15th level but he still isn't as powerful as the 12/13 Druid Runemark, who has similar XP's. Or the 12/11 Ranger/Cleric. Or the 14th level mage, 11th level thief character.

People have always complained that "I am 3 levels behind everyone else." Pure fake crying.

The Druid/Runemark can cast a butt load of Druid and Arcane spells of up to 7th level in Druid. So they would be able to cast 8th, maybe 9th level spells if they were purely one class or the other. So what? The extra spells they get from that second class more than make up for what they can't cast.

I'll take a 12/13 Druid Runemark over a 17th level Druid any day.

The Thief/Mage started out as a pure Thief. Now they are a 14th level mage too and decided to freeze thief. If they had stayed thief they would be about 20th level now. So what? The Thief/mage is much more powerful than any 20th level thief. They are a much better thief too, since they have so much magic to help them with thieving.

So anyone who complains about dual classed or multi classed characters getting screwed in 1E or 2E is either intentionally lying about it or totally missed how much more powerful their character was due to the added depth of options that character has.

Only taking 3 classes can slow someone down enough to actually cripple themselves. Even so I think a Fighter/Thief/Illusionist would be well worth it. Most other class combo's probably won't be. Two classed characters never have an excuse to complain. If they do complain they need to learn to use their class powers in combination much better.

Fighter/mage or fighter/cleric are probably the two most powerful "power combos", but personally I have the most fun with Mage/Thieves.

I have to say the Druid/Runemark (essentially the same thing as a Druid/Mage) has me thinking that combo is probably the most powerful, over all. The spell selection, the HD, the decent AC achievable, the druidic shape change powers, etc... make this character one very potent combo. Especially since she took the elemental path I have in my house rules. Even if she had gone by the book, the animal shapes are pretty darn useful and powerful as well. Plus want she has pulled off by just being able to be a treant. Ugly.

So she may not be the 18th level Runemark able to cast the Wish rune, but she sure isn't lacking in raw power or extremely effective combo's that are only possible because she is a dual class.

So to be brutally honest, I laugh at anyone who claims being a dual classed is a hardship. Any such claims I hear about a multi class will be taken with more than a grain of salt as well. Having the ability to call on several classes worth of abilities may not appear to be powerful on the surface, but when combined together and put into use, they can be a OMAC character (One Man Army Corp).

So yes, they may give up 2 to 4 levels to help them make saves, but that can be largely offset with one item of protection, they may give up some HP's, or a bit of AC, but the trade off is more than worth it.
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[gideon_thorne]

Thief mages are bad ass for sure. Stealth and area affect artillery all in one.
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Peter Bradley

[shadoes]

Treebore I see your point. my thing about counting levels is a 'borrow' from an MMO called Horizons. They did something similar where you could be a 6/5 dual class but you were considered 11th level for purposes of monsters to fight. Was real easy to gimp yourself.

But you are correct. In looking at it on a per exp basis which admittedly I should have done in the first place that is what I get for trying to borrow a concept .. it does work out better as I originally wanted it.. IE NOT adding BtH...