Troll Lord Games

Hello all. I'm relatively new to these boards (so go easy on the new guy ). So far I'm loving the discussion here and all the people seem (fairly) civil.

I have a question that maybe someone can help me with. I was perusing M&T and noticed something odd - the Mantle of Spell Resistance's SR of 21. I reread the rules for Spell Resistance and it confirmed my thoughts that it was a flat roll. I then pulled out my errata, but I wasn't able to find anything listed there either.

I did find a thread that talked about it, but it was a two year old thread that talked about adding intelligence modifiers to the flat roll for overcoming SR. That seemed to be a previous edition.

Seeing how I can see no way to overcome the Mantle's SR of 21 by the letter of the rule, has there been any errata on it? If not, what would be the best way to houserule/adjudicate this?

Thanks

It is a mistake - I'd reduce the spell resistance by 10.

I think I just reversed the SR and made it a 12 instead of 21.
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You can flip it if you want, but unless the Trolls have changed things, the SR given for the mantle is correct. It's on one of the old errata threads created on this forum somewhere, but in short, because of the value of the mantle compared to the armor of spell resistance (a tenfold increase I believe, from 20,000gp to 120,000gp), the mantle's SR must have been intended to make the wearer nearly invincible to spells.
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Except, a 21 is completely immune to those with SR allowed. A 19 would be better.

Traveller wrote:
You can flip it if you want, but unless the Trolls have changed things, the SR given for the mantle is correct. It's on one of the old errata threads created on this forum somewhere, but in short, because of the value of the mantle compared to the armor of spell resistance (a tenfold increase I believe, from 20,000gp to 120,000gp), the mantle's SR must have been intended to make the wearer nearly invincible to spells.

Far be it from me to doubt you, good sir, but isn't a 21 not "nearly" as much as it is "completely?" With no adjustment to the caster check, there is no way to surpass a (natural) 20.

Or are you saying that the Mantle's intention was to make the wearer completely immune?

My original suspicion was that the 21 was a hold out from an OGL port that never got adjusted. Just my two cents.

Not trying to be argumentative, just curious (and confused).

serleran wrote:
Except, a 21 is completely immune to those with SR allowed. A 19 would be better.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I think a 19 may be a little too high, IMO. I was looking at the Robe of the Archmagi, both C&C and OGL d20. The C&C Robe is nine points lower. Dropping the Mantle down nine points gives it a nice, healthy 12 (which coincides with Aladar's suggestion). Maybe the numbers were reversed?
I like my theory of it being a holdover from the OGL, though. According to the errata, there were a few things in M&T that got accidentally ported over from the OGL

There was talk at some time about how a caster's INT modifier could be used to modify a SR roll. This could be a leftover from that line of thought.

-O
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Yes, there was discussion about SR being more like a tradition SIEGE check - however, it was never intended to be such. Adding level or attribute modifiers to it is a houserule, and not RAW. RAW, the mantle is artifact-level powerful.

serleran wrote:
Yes, there was discussion about SR being more like a tradition SIEGE check - however, it was never intended to be such. Adding level or attribute modifiers to it is a houserule, and not RAW. RAW, the mantle is artifact-level powerful.

I see.

So let me ask this, then. If it indeed RAW, will/would you (the CKs or prospective CKs - like me) leave it at an SR of 21 or would you reduce it...and what would you reduce it to?

Maybe it's the brain-washing I've had under the influence of 3.X and the comparison I'm making between the Mantle and the Robe. I'd probably reduce it...but I like to hear others opinions/rulings/advice as well.

I think that the answer is to do whatever you want to do; after all, it's your game!
But I think that 19 is reasonable if you don't want it to be so powerful.

-Fox

I already said I'd reduce it by 10.

Lord Dynel wrote:
Not trying to be argumentative, just curious (and confused).

*laughs*

I like to understate things.

In all seriousness though, if you drop the mantle's SR to 19, you should drop its gold piece value to something more reasonable. But, do remember that unlike the Armor of Spell Resistance (SR19), the Mantle can be worn by anyone, as there is no limitation as to class in Monsters & Treasure, unless I missed it. That's the other reason for the high gold piece value.

Unfortunately, it's not a holdover from the OGL nor is it a gaffe. It's intentional that the wearer be immune to spells.

In my game the Mantle stays at 21, as there are ways to get around the Mantle's spell resistance. Tossing an ancient, huge, red dragon at the party works wonders, especially my dragons with d20 hit dice.
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Sure, the mantle is not all-powerful, except as regards spells and effects that allow SR in the first place. Not every spell, thankfully, allows SR. And, it can be fun to whittle down a player that has become overconfident about their "immunities."

For me, it is just personal... I don't like the SR as written, so I'd change it.

Oh, and I'd ignore the GP value, anyway, since, in my games you cannot buy or sell magic items and XP for treasure never happens.

Quote:
Sure, the mantle is not all-powerful, except as regards spells and effects that allow SR in the first place. Not every spell, thankfully, allows SR. And, it can be fun to whittle down a player that has become overconfident about their "immunities."

For me, it is just personal... I don't like the SR as written, so I'd change it.

Oh, and I'd ignore the GP value, anyway, since, in my games you cannot buy or sell magic items and XP for treasure never happens.

True, true (especially the last sentence - I did that in my very first AD&D campaign...for the first 10 adventures or so.)

Yeah, I had on my "narrow scope" hat again - I never even considered "non-SRable" (now, that's a nice term! ) spells/effects. Considering those, maybe 21 isn't such a big deal after all.

This thing, with an SR of 21, would never see the light of day in my games. It would almost certainly be changed if it were used at all.

That's not an artifact, it's a game breaker. Drop the SR, make it dependent on charges, have it cursed, *anything* to balance it - but *never* allow total spell immunity on an effectively permanent basis.

The Armor of Spell Resistance, with a 19 SR, is the same.

I'd like to think that these values were set before there was a solid understanding of how SR worked BTB. 95% to 105% resistance to *ALL SPELL EFFECTS* is patently absurd unless it's a temporary spell, or each use drains a finite amount of charges.
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Then perhaps we should canvass the Trolls to see if they have changed the official stance on both items.
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Traveller wrote:
Then perhaps we should canvass the Trolls to see if they have changed the official stance on both items.

That may be a good idea, good sir.

Is there someplace where we can see how they responded to the question in the past, or is that lost in the dustbin of the Internet by now?
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

More than likely, it is some post by Peter relating something one of the Trolls said to him, when asked about said thing during layout / updating the 2nd print PHB. If so, that would put it, probably, on the old forums which suffered that lovely meltdown.

It was all the way back to 2005 on Dragonsfoot that I mentioned recalling conversations on the old boards regarding the mantle. The discussion, which was helmed by Mac, and lost in the board meltdown, said that there may be creatures or other magic items that could affect spell resistance. Therefore, Mac's response had in fact verified that the Mantle is not errata.

Monsters & Treasure does not have any creatures or magic items that provide a negative spell resistance, but that doesn't mean such creatures and items cannot or will not be created in a different product. Further, the Mantle is taken virtually unaltered from the d20 SRD, with the exception of the price, which was bumped UP 30,000gp to 120,000gp. The price bump plus the lack of alteration plus what Mac had said on that thread (and I thought I quoted the relevant info on one of the various Mantle discussions on The Keeper's Den, Grognard's Tavern, or Dragonsfoot) effectively sealed the deal that the Mantle was in fact correct.

So, that's where I had standing that the Mantle was correct. However, I will ALWAYS defer to the Trolls, and if they deem that the Mantle needs to be changed, then I'm all for it. I may be the errata monkey, but I'm not a Troll and have little standing in that department.
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