An alternate attribute system for your review

Liminal · Post by **Liminal** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:58 pm

I'm brand new to C&C, so of course the first thing I want to do is change it.
I've never been a fan of randomness in character creation or advancement, so I've made a first stab at an alternate system for generating attributes. My goal is to keep the same balance of power as the classic 3d6 roll, but giving control to the player as to how to distribute it.

All possible rolls of 3d6 breaks down as such:

[quote]Code:

To turn this into a point-buy system, I simply inverse the rarity to reflect the cost:

[quote]Code:

Now you simply start with 4 points and just plug in the scores you want. When you're done, you must have 0 or more points remaining. For example, a rouge might do this:

[quote]Code:

I start with a bonus 4 points as a statistical rounding-up. That's the largest difference between the costs of going up or down between scores, so if there are points left over that won't evenly spend the character should always be at least as powerful as average (often slightly more so). My math isn't that great, so I'm not totally sure that quite works out the way I think it does.

What do you think?

Note: I'm only working off the quick start rules packet, so if there's already an official alternative I'd be happy to know about it!

Update:

I made a nifty calculator that does the math for you: 3d6 De-Randomizer

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:07 pm

No official alternate way, though there have been numerous discussions about it. I, personally, like random rolls as I like to have the fate of my PC be left to fate... not my control, so I don't like point buys (they also tend to slow character creation down as people debate the "best" allocation.) You might like looking at Traveller's genetic character creation method, available on his site (I don't have the link handy.)

tex · Post by **tex** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:44 pm

One thing d20 does that works pretty well is to provide a "default array":

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

I don't think this is too high for standard C&C because the modifiers for the attributes are so low . . . nothing is better than a +1, and folks can only get to a +2 by playing a demihuman.

Liminal · Post by **Liminal** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:19 pm

tex wrote:
One thing d20 does that works pretty well is to provide a "default array":

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

I don't think this is too high for standard C&C because the modifiers for the attributes are so low . . . nothing is better than a +1, and folks can only get to a +2 by playing a demihuman.

I can't speak to the bonuses and such, but that's 27 points of distribution over average 3d6 rolls, which seems like quite a lot.

But I suppose it's all about what style of play you're looking for. If you want the characters extra heroic, there's nothing wrong with that.

shadoes · Post by **shadoes** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:40 pm

I am with Seralan on this one. For one thing to me point buy systems have always drifted to close to min/max'ing. A practice I personally don't like but some do
It also takes away the joy of having good dice rolls.. then again takes away the pain of bad ones too
Not for me but it does seem as good a point buy system as any.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:24 pm

It looks like you will get the results you want. So use it for a campaign or two, see how it works.

Personally when I play the last thing I want to play is "normal". I want the exceptional hero type like Conan. SO to me that means good and high stats. So I use one of three methods. The player chooses which one to use.

Method 1: Give yourself whatever attributes you want.

Method 2: Roll 4d6, reroll all 1's or 2's until they are all a 3 or better, take 3 highest, arrange attributes as desired.

Method 3: Roll 2d4 and add to 10.

Most have used method 2.

Yes, this makes for tough characters. Guess what? They still die easy enough.
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Taranthyll · Post by **Taranthyll** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:02 pm

I prefer heroic characters too. I use the 32 pt. buy (tough campaign) from the 3.X DMG so that everyone is likely to get an 18 in one attribute, or several attributes with moderately high scores. Like Treebore, I've found that my player's characters die just as fast with heroic stats as without, so high/low attribute scores seems less about balance and more about style of play.

I swore off having players roll their scores in my first 3.0 D&D campaign after a more than ten year hiatus from D&D, during which time I played mostly class-less, level-less games like Hero System and GURPS. For my first 3E D&D campaign I wanted to roll, like in the good old days, and one of my players rolled two 18's, one 17, two 16's and a 15. Everyone else generated scores around hovering around the 10-11 range. This created a disparity in the group that caused a lot of hardships - the one "super character" naturally multiclassed and overshadowed every other character in the game - he fought better, cast spells better, did everything better. After that campaign I realized that I really preferred having all the characters start off on the same footing.

Personally, I kind of miss the fun and element of chance involved in rolling up characters, and I've never minded generating a sub-optimal character - I actually enjoy the challenge and the roleplaying opportunities that such characters provide - but I think I'm in the minority, at least among the people I play with.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:18 pm

Thats why I have my dice rolling methods. Everyone is exceptional. The only problem I have seen is when the super character does get rolled. The worst I've seen being 3 18's and 2 17's. However, everyone else's characters were close enough that they didn't really outshine everyone else to an irritating degree.

Now when one of my players created an all 18's character, because he just wanted to see what ti would be like, he was noticeably more effective than the rest of the party. He was also the first to die. Since he was so tough he also put his character out there, in front. So he died. Very heroicly too.
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Liminal · Post by **Liminal** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:09 am

shadoes wrote:
For one thing to me point buy systems have always drifted to close to min/max'ing.

It's true that that is a danger of point-buy systems. But I've always been of the opinion that if you have min/max problems, then you don't need a new system, you need new players.

Liminal · Post by **Liminal** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:12 am

I've played high-powered games and they can be a lot of fun. But for myself, I find that I prefer to start off with "normal" characters and then go through the process of having them become heroic through their experiences. Hence my rigor in trying to make a statistically neutral attribute system.

shadoes · Post by **shadoes** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:30 am

Liminal wrote:
It's true that that is a danger of point-buy systems. But I've always been of the opinion that if you have min/max problems, then you don't need a new system, you need new players.

I would tend to agree but then again sometimes one has to take what one can get

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:37 am

serleran wrote:
You might like looking at Traveller's genetic character creation method, available on his site (I don't have the link handy.)

The link to my site is in my sig. I admit I like the genetic chargen system, and have tried it out in practice runs.

I personally am not a big fan of point buy, though it does have its uses (the superhero genre for example). I prefer random rolls, but I give the players the option of swapping out the generated scores for the d20 Star Wars standard score package if the generated scores aren't to their liking.
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Liminal · Post by **Liminal** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:54 am

In a fit of productivity, I decided to make a calculator for this method. 3d6 De-Randomizer

I welcome any feedback!

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:13 am

To get teh kind of fighter I would want to play I would be 105 points in the hole.
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:25 pm

To the OP - considering that in C&C A. Stats never increase except through magic or other extraordinary circumstances; and B., The range of modifiers ranges only from -4 to +3, the costs you've associated with the attributes is out of whackus. 1 = -4 and 18 or 19 = +3, so why is 1 +27 and 18 -27? Also, everything from 9 - 12 is a modifier of 0, so why the range of costs there if there is no hope of increasing the stats?

Liminal · Post by **Liminal** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:16 pm

Harry Joy wrote:
To the OP - considering that in C&C A. Stats never increase except through magic or other extraordinary circumstances; and B., The range of modifiers ranges only from -4 to +3, the costs you've associated with the attributes is out of whackus. 1 = -4 and 18 or 19 = +3, so why is 1 +27 and 18 -27? Also, everything from 9 - 12 is a modifier of 0, so why the range of costs there if there is no hope of increasing the stats?

The sole consideration I had in this system was maintaining consistency with the standard method of rolling 3d6 for attributes. As far as I can tell, it is statistically identical (though math isn't one of my strengths, I'd be happy to hear if I've made any errors). Any weaknesses it may have apply equally for the official rules, which have been handed down through the ages.

So we'd have to blame Gygax and the bell curve.

tex · Post by **tex** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:31 pm

shadoes wrote:
I would tend to agree but then again sometimes one has to take what one can get

This is so very true! The players at the table may be the only ones available. Roleplaying systems, if they are really aimed at helping people have fun, should do what they can to help even "diverse" groups enjoy themselves.

Foxroe · Post by **Foxroe** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:37 pm

Ah, yes! Another facet of the beautiful diamond that is the SIEGE Engine!

It doesn't much matter what your ability scores are. The bonuses/penalties don't offset your chances of success much, considering that whether or not your ability score is a prime or not (and your character's level in some cases) has a greater impact. It is for this reason that I feel that the 3D6 method isn't so bad.

Besides, if you don't like your ability scores, just scrap the character and start over.
-Fox

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:31 pm

I have said it before on these boards, I think, but I have gotten to the point in my games where, honestly, I really don't care what the attributes are - if I am the Castle Keeper, I allow the players to just write down whatever stats they want, as long as they are within the possible for the race, and as a player, I am content to just play -- the stats act as guidelines to my playing, not a restraint or limiter. C&C has no (or very few) "attribute-dependent" abilities, such as "you have to have a Dexterity of 15 before you can become a shadow assassin" or whatever, so they are, as mentioned, pretty much meaningless - where they do matter are effects that specifically deal with them, like fatigue, drowning, shadow's touch, and some spells. Otherwise, no big whoop.

Of course, it is fun to wriggle in the fun that is creating alternates, though, and I'm all for that.

Maybe I should see if I still have my FASA-inspired priority system...