Secondary and General Skills

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
Post Reply
User avatar
bulletmeat
Ungern
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 7:00 am

Secondary and General Skills

Post by bulletmeat »

I was wondering about CKs experiences with using some sort of defined skill set. I am debating whether or not it is worth the trouble including them, making a character sheet, etc.
_________________
Fry: Well, thanks to the internet, I'm now bored with sex.

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Post by Treebore »

The following is my most recent incarnation of skills. If this doesn't work well I am going to just doing skills by the book. IE pure SIEGE checks, based on Prime/Non-Prime, etc...

SKILLS:

Not only do you have any skills specified in the class description, and treat all such skills as if you have a Prime in the related stat for purposes using that skill, you can create a list of 10 more skills for your character to have beyond those specified for your class. You can also add one more skill per point of INT bonus. You can take a skill that is a class skill.

Clerics and Druids can use their WIS bonus instead, if it is higher than their INT, for purposes of extra skills.

LANGUAGES:

If you take a race other than human you automatically get the listed bonus languages. Humans can have common and an additional language per point of INT bonus. If they want more than that they can burn one of the 10 base skill slots to do so. However, languages do not use up INT bonus points for purposes of skills. So if you have an INT of 18, you get 3 languages as well as 3 additional skill points. This is the same for non-humans. IE an 18 INT gets them 3 more languages of their choice, as well as gives them 3 more skill points.

Skills list:

Acrobatics (DEX)

Athletics (STR)

Bluff (CHA)

Concentration (CON)

Diplomacy (CHA)

Handle Animal (CHA sometimes DEX)

Intimidate (CHA)

Knowledge: Arcana (INT)

Knowledge: History (INT)

Knowledge: Local (CHA)

Knowledge: Medicine (INT)

Knowledge: Nature (INT or WIS)

Knowledge: the Planes (INT)

Knowledge: Religion (INT)

Notice (WIS)

Perform (CHA)

Profession (INT or WIS)

Sense Motive (WIS)

Sleight of Hand (DEX)

Sneak (DEX)

Use Mechanical Device (DEX or INT)

Alternative look at it:

STR: Athletics

DEX: Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Sneak, Use Mechanical Device****

CON: Concentration

INT: Knowledge: Arcana, History, Medicine, Nature**, the Planes, Religion, Profession**, Use Mechanical Device****

WIS: Notice, Knowledge: Nature, Profession**, Sense Motive

CHA: Bluff, Diplomacy, Handle Animal*, Intimidate, Knowledge: Local, Perform.

*Handle Animal has certains uses for which DEX may be used.

** For Knowledge: Nature and Profession you may use your WIS or INT mod which ever is higher.

**** For Use Mechanical Device, you may use your DEX or INT mod, whichever is higher

---

Here are the fine details of the skill list:

Acrobatics (DEX)

Is for all Balance, Escape Artist and Tumble checks

Athletics (STR)

Is for all Climb, Jump and Swim checks.

Bluff (CHA)

Is the same.

Concentration (CON)

Is for all Concentration checks.

Diplomacy (CHA)

Is the same.

Handle Animal (CHA or sometimes DEX)

Is for all Handle Animal and Ride checks.

Intimidate (CHA)

Is the same.

Knowledge: Arcana (INT)

This skill takes over all Knowledge: Arcana checks and Spellcraft checks. It also pertains to Knowledge checks for Constructs, Dragons, Elementals, Magical Beasts and Oozes.

Knowledge: History (INT)

Knowledge: Local (CHA)

Is for all Gather Information and Knowledge: Local checks.

Knowledge: Medicine (INT)

Is for all Heal checks.

Knowledge: Nature (INT or WIS)

Is for all Knowledge: Nature and Survival checks as well as checks for Animals, Giants, Fey, Monstrous Humanoids, Plants and Vermin.

Knowledge: the Planes (INT)

Is for all Knowledge: the Planes checks, as well as for Survival checks when on a different plane, as well as checks for Aberrations, Elementals and Outsiders.

Knowledge: Religion (INT)

Is for Knowledge: Religion checks as well as for checks for Outsiders with an Alignment subtype and the Undead.

Notice (WIS)

This takes over all Spot, Listen and Search checks.

Perform (CHA)

Is the same, save for there is no distinction between what sort of performance type you choose that is simply fluff/flavor.

Profession (WIS)

Is for all Craft and Profession checks. (Tree here, but specific Craft/Proff still need to be selected per point)

Sense Motive (WIS)

Is the same.

Sleight of Hand (DEX)

Is for all Sleight of Hand and Use Rope checks.

Sneak (DEX)

Is for all Hide and Move Silently checks

Use Mechanical Device (DEX or INT)

Is for all Disable Device and Open Lock checks.

One more change I am thinking of implementing.

Class skill: You get to use the skill as "Prime", which mean base TN is 12 and you get to add your level and attribute.

Skill: Any skill you have allows you to roll versus TN of 12 and add your level, unless it is also a "Class Skill". When it is a class skill you use a base TN of 18 but get to add your level.

No skill: If your attempting something that is a "skill" you get to roll based on if your relevant stat is Prime or not. If it is the base TN is 12, if not it is an TN 18. If it is a skill that is also a "Class Skill" your base TN is 18. You never get to add your class level to either roll.

This protects the class skill, showing the clear superiority of a character who learns certain skills as a profession, rather than being self taught or having great natural aptitude.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Jackal
Ulthal
Posts: 405
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 7:00 am

Post by Jackal »

This might not be helpful as mine isn't a defined set of skills but I use the siege engine to emulate skills on the fly based on class and character back story. This is a bit from the house rules document I give to my players:

8) Siege Engine Skills: For the purposes of adding level to an attribute check there are three types of skills

a) Class Skills: These include class features as listed in the PHB. Also, Class Skills include those things which you are assumed to be somewhat good at based on your class (fighters being able to mend arms and armor for example). When making checks using these abilities, always add level to the roll.

b) Profession Skills: These skills are based on your former profession. When making checks using these skills, add a bonus equal to one-half your level (rounded down) to the die roll. If any Profession Skill emulates a Class Skill it is important to note that only those who have such skills from a class can use them to their full ability, even with a successful check (for example, while a barbarian with sailor as his former profession may be able to make a climb check he will not be able to climb the special obstacles that a rogue can).

c) Untrained Skills: These are any skill which a character has neither from his class nor his former profession. If a character is even allowed to attempt such a skill (CKs discretion) level is never added to the roll. If any Untrained Skill emulates a Class Skill they are handled in the same manner as Profession Skills should the check be allowed and then passed.

For a detailed skill set, Treebore's looks good. It reminds me a lot of the D&D Rules Cyclopedia (and boxed set before it) skill system and that always worked out well for OD&D.

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Re: Secondary and General Skills

Post by gideon_thorne »

bulletmeat wrote:
I was wondering about CKs experiences with using some sort of defined skill set. I am debating whether or not it is worth the trouble including them, making a character sheet, etc.
http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/downlo ... skills.pdf I use a modified version of this.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Post by serleran »

I do a little something like this:

1) assumed abilities - these are based on character class, Primes, and attribute scores; a high Intelligence fighter with Intelligence Prime is more prone to understanding battlefield tactics and siege warfare, for example. These are "assumed" and not written down - they also rarely require any sort of check; its either you know it, or you do not.

2) background abilities - these are given based on character history which I tend to provide to the player in a 1 page document using generic material, based on discussions with the player about what they want their character to be like. For example, if you want a mage who has spent several years living as a beggar, you'll have some skills at such things, equal to a minor disguise or something equivalent - again, these rarely involve SIEGE checks, but it depends a great deal on the actual ability and how it is used.

3) trained abilities - in my games, you can elect to undergo training. Doing so grants different benefits depending on what you are training for, and so forth. "Skill training" tends to take a considerable amount of time, money, and experience, but when done, is somewhat like Gary's Yggsburgh method, but not quite - these abilities nearly always require checks to use as they tend to mimic class abilities. I do have a defined list, but it can always be expanded, depending on the player and what is available in the locale - ie, you will not learn to swim in Anauroch.

User avatar
Aladar
Lore Drake
Posts: 1261
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Elgin, OK

Post by Aladar »

bulletmeat,

I use the CZ: Class Options & Skills for Yggsburgh as well. So far it has worked alright.

Gideon,

If you don't mind me asking, what modifications did you make?
_________________
Lord Aladar

Warden of the Welk Wood

Baron of the Castles & Crusades Society

The Poster formerly known as Alwyn

Senior Gamer - Member of the Senior RPG Tour

"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT - At least not in Yu Gi Oh"
http://www.cncsociety.org/
Lord Aladar
Warden of the Welk Wood
Baron of the Castles & Crusades Society
The Poster formerly known as Alwyn
Senior Gamer - Member of the Senior RPG Tour
"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT - At least not in Yu Gi Oh"

http://www.cncsociety.org/

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

Aladar wrote:
bulletmeat,

I use the CZ: Class Options & Skills for Yggsburgh as well. So far it has worked alright.

Gideon,

If you don't mind me asking, what modifications did you make?

Well, you know how it costs x amount of xp for one 'level' that gives a +2 to an ability. I cut the xp totals in half, and set it to +1 per level. I also take the xp cost and blend it in with the characters xp chart. That way, once that math is done the given background skill rises in level with the character.

Or players can just save a certain percentage of their xp back to pay for the ability later. I generally ask that players show me that they are going to use a given skill often, or be under another's tutilage, lets say Blacksmithing for example, before I suggest 'saving' the xp to buy it.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

User avatar
Aladar
Lore Drake
Posts: 1261
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:00 am
Location: Elgin, OK

Post by Aladar »

Thanks. May have to steal that idea.
_________________
Lord Aladar

Warden of the Welk Wood

Baron of the Castles & Crusades Society

The Poster formerly known as Alwyn

Senior Gamer - Member of the Senior RPG Tour

"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT - At least not in Yu Gi Oh"
http://www.cncsociety.org/
Lord Aladar
Warden of the Welk Wood
Baron of the Castles & Crusades Society
The Poster formerly known as Alwyn
Senior Gamer - Member of the Senior RPG Tour
"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT - At least not in Yu Gi Oh"

http://www.cncsociety.org/

User avatar
bulletmeat
Ungern
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed May 10, 2006 7:00 am

Post by bulletmeat »

I thank you for the info. I was debating whether or not to include skills (help 3rd ed with transition) or just give the old, "hey, a dwarven fighter from the mountains should know how to climb, add your level."

If I am going to include a skill set, option, what have you I was going to make my own character sheet, type up a system (probably redo the 2ed background system), and set it up similar to non-weap prof.

However, I am trying to get out of the 3rd ed mind set, keep things simple (which is really f*****g hard believe it or not) and convince other players to let go.

^As a side note, anyone know if Starsiege will have a skill set with it? Wanted to adapt it to Star Wars if possible.
_________________
Fry: Well, thanks to the internet, I'm now bored with sex.

User avatar
gideon_thorne
Maukling
Posts: 6176
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
Contact:

Post by gideon_thorne »

Aladar wrote:
Thanks. May have to steal that idea.

Another thought. You could award xp for successful use of a specific type of attribute check. Like a character who forges their own weapons. Each check means they are learning a bit more about the process. Say 100 xp for each successful check. Note that info on a sheet, and just award the character a +1 for their future checks after 1500 xp is reached. And so forth.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Post by Omote »

I use secondary skills out of the 1E DMG and a list of about 30 general skills.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

cturnitsa
Skobbit
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:00 am

Post by cturnitsa »

I am much more of a fan of the 2E AD&D skill list than that of 3E or 3.5 (haven't looked at 4E yet).

In light of that, I have converted many of the NWP skills from 2E to the SIEGE engine. There is a link to a pdf containing the writeup on my blog (top of the right hand column).

Chuck

ps - Blog is located at: http://chuckgame.blogspot.com/
_________________
Chuck

Gaming with Chuck
http://chuckgame.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Rigon
Clang lives!
Posts: 7202
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Conneaut Lake, PA

Post by Rigon »

I used to use the Secondary skills list from 1e, but have decided that if what the PC wants to do would fall under a related (class, race, background) skill, I'll just decide on a TN and let them try it.

That said, I have given the 2e proficiences a thought a time or two.

R-
_________________
Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind
Castles & Crusades: What 3rd Edition AD&D should have been.
TLG Forum Moderator
House Rules & Whatnots
My Game Threads
Monday Night Online Group Member since 2007

Post Reply