Dual-Classing ala 3rd Edition
-
Aqua Vitae
- Mist Elf
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:00 am
Dual-Classing ala 3rd Edition
I was wondering if anyone handled level advancement in a manner analogous to 3rd Edition D&D. It would seem to resolve problems about presumably redundant abilities and dual-classing in classes with the same Prime. For example, in the 3E schema, a 1st level Rogue/1st level assassin would have a +2 to Hide, Move Silently. Later, that character gets to 7th level as Rogue and 3rd level as Assassin. He now has a +10 to his primary class abilities, instead of simply +7 (use the highest from either class, as in the unofficial Gygax rules to this effect).
-
Lord Dynel
- Maukling
- Posts: 5843
- Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am
I thought about that as well. Here is my issue.
Adding levels to skill checks, saves, and the like for multiclass characters would make them too powerful, in my opinion, in relation to the rest of the party.
Take 100,000 experience points. That makes an 8th level rogue. By contrast, an even split between classes using the same amount of experience points (50,000/50,000) would yield a 6th level fighter/7th level rogue. The 8th level rogue could only add +8 to his checks but the 6 Ftr/7 Rog could add +13? That's my issue.
I would do it very similar to the CZ/1e/2e rules for multiclassing. HD/2 + Con modifier/2 per level for hit points (assuming two classes), Highest class for saves, and individual levels count only for skills of the class in question (in my above multiclass example, the 6 Ftr/7 Rog would only add +7 to his Rogue skills - which really isn't that bad considering he's also a 6th level Fighter)
Adding levels to skill checks, saves, and the like for multiclass characters would make them too powerful, in my opinion, in relation to the rest of the party.
Take 100,000 experience points. That makes an 8th level rogue. By contrast, an even split between classes using the same amount of experience points (50,000/50,000) would yield a 6th level fighter/7th level rogue. The 8th level rogue could only add +8 to his checks but the 6 Ftr/7 Rog could add +13? That's my issue.
I would do it very similar to the CZ/1e/2e rules for multiclassing. HD/2 + Con modifier/2 per level for hit points (assuming two classes), Highest class for saves, and individual levels count only for skills of the class in question (in my above multiclass example, the 6 Ftr/7 Rog would only add +7 to his Rogue skills - which really isn't that bad considering he's also a 6th level Fighter)
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
I've been thinking about this issue somewhat. I think there is a way to tweak the way experience points are used to gain levels, such that classes can have different xp thresholds for levelling, yet still allow the nifty d20-style multiclassing. I think this could be pretty slick if it works. Here's my sketch of the idea:
* Experience is no longer kept in a permanent ever-accumulating pool; instead experience must be spent on a classs to gain a level in that class, even for single-classed characters.
* Replace all the "EPP" columns for all the class tables in the PHB; this column is replaced by the xp cost for attaining each level. This amount is easy to determine: Subtract the previous level's EPP total from the current level's total. In the old system the level three row for the Fighter said 4001; in the new system that row would be 4001 - 2001 = 2000.
So, single-classed characters are effectively the same in either system. Here's how multiclassing works:
* A character's level is equal to the sum of all their acquired levels from all classes. The character level is used for all attribute checks, saves, and so on.
* BtH and hit points work as they do in d20 multiclassing (they stack). I'm not sure how to handle Prime Attributes yet, heh.
* Characters must progress through the levels of any classes they belong to in in order and starting with the first level, just as in d20.
* Here's the magical part that makes it all work: When a character acquires a level in a class, it must spend experience as if the character were single-classed. In other words, always use the character level to find the experience cost, and not the class level.
I'll give an example. Say Corinth is a 3rd level rogue and is single-classed. Corinth wants to gain a level of fighter, becoming rog 3 / ftr 1. If Corinth were a pure fighter and were gaining a level, he'd have to spend 4500 xp. So, 4500 xp is how much Corinth must spend to gain the first level of the fighter class. When he does, he gains Weapon Specialization.
Later, Corinth wants to gain another level of Rogue, to go from rog 3 / ftr 1 to rog 4 / ftr 1. Corinth's character level is 4, which means the cost to advance in any class is equal to the cost of advancing to level 5 in that class. In the case of Rogue this is 6000 xp, so that's what Corinth has to pay to become a rog 4 / ftr 1.
I think this system works -- costs to gain a level are always increasing, the sums aren't completely broken, and characters have freedom and flexibility.
Could someone try to poke holes in this idea?
* Experience is no longer kept in a permanent ever-accumulating pool; instead experience must be spent on a classs to gain a level in that class, even for single-classed characters.
* Replace all the "EPP" columns for all the class tables in the PHB; this column is replaced by the xp cost for attaining each level. This amount is easy to determine: Subtract the previous level's EPP total from the current level's total. In the old system the level three row for the Fighter said 4001; in the new system that row would be 4001 - 2001 = 2000.
So, single-classed characters are effectively the same in either system. Here's how multiclassing works:
* A character's level is equal to the sum of all their acquired levels from all classes. The character level is used for all attribute checks, saves, and so on.
* BtH and hit points work as they do in d20 multiclassing (they stack). I'm not sure how to handle Prime Attributes yet, heh.
* Characters must progress through the levels of any classes they belong to in in order and starting with the first level, just as in d20.
* Here's the magical part that makes it all work: When a character acquires a level in a class, it must spend experience as if the character were single-classed. In other words, always use the character level to find the experience cost, and not the class level.
I'll give an example. Say Corinth is a 3rd level rogue and is single-classed. Corinth wants to gain a level of fighter, becoming rog 3 / ftr 1. If Corinth were a pure fighter and were gaining a level, he'd have to spend 4500 xp. So, 4500 xp is how much Corinth must spend to gain the first level of the fighter class. When he does, he gains Weapon Specialization.
Later, Corinth wants to gain another level of Rogue, to go from rog 3 / ftr 1 to rog 4 / ftr 1. Corinth's character level is 4, which means the cost to advance in any class is equal to the cost of advancing to level 5 in that class. In the case of Rogue this is 6000 xp, so that's what Corinth has to pay to become a rog 4 / ftr 1.
I think this system works -- costs to gain a level are always increasing, the sums aren't completely broken, and characters have freedom and flexibility.
Could someone try to poke holes in this idea?
There are several problems, especially regarding same-archetype - you double up on everything for nothing, since you'd be spending the same amount anyway. Example: Rogue-assassin would get some abilities that would cross-over (and be rendered expense prohibitive) but, you'd get combined level on everything that did not cross (ie, death attack,) both BtHs (rather than one), and roughly the same HP. Also, abilities that specifically function on level (sneak attack, for example) would end up very powerful. Therefore, there must be caveat that "double Prime" is simply not allowed, but that kills a lot of fun combinations (like wizard-illusionist...) You would also want to rule that class abilities specific to the class are based on the level of that class (ie, a level 4 rogue / 6 wizard does not cast as as 10th level...)
Also, at very low levels, XP is not always as progressive as it might seem, considering what one might get for that XP. This is especially true for low-XP classes that take on moderate XP warrior classes. Think rogue-ranger (especially combat maraudar that improves each and every level,) where the abilities picked up, say at 2nd level, is hardly anything compared to needing the same at much higher level. The way to stop this is to require the XP to equal the same level requirement of whichever class(es) is highest -- example: rogue 1 / ranger 1 wants to go to rogue 2 - he has to earn the 3rd level ranger's XP because it is higher. But, even this is not "fair" as it gives, literally, the lesser cost class for free. There is zero incentive to not multiclass and that is not desirable in a game that is focused on archetype play... but, if you wish to remove that style, this is one way.
All of these were considered, by the way, in development of C&C - every system has its flaws and merits. And, everyone wants something different. In the end, I've, personally, opted to remove the class structure completely -- I just build whatever the player wants to play.
Also, at very low levels, XP is not always as progressive as it might seem, considering what one might get for that XP. This is especially true for low-XP classes that take on moderate XP warrior classes. Think rogue-ranger (especially combat maraudar that improves each and every level,) where the abilities picked up, say at 2nd level, is hardly anything compared to needing the same at much higher level. The way to stop this is to require the XP to equal the same level requirement of whichever class(es) is highest -- example: rogue 1 / ranger 1 wants to go to rogue 2 - he has to earn the 3rd level ranger's XP because it is higher. But, even this is not "fair" as it gives, literally, the lesser cost class for free. There is zero incentive to not multiclass and that is not desirable in a game that is focused on archetype play... but, if you wish to remove that style, this is one way.
All of these were considered, by the way, in development of C&C - every system has its flaws and merits. And, everyone wants something different. In the end, I've, personally, opted to remove the class structure completely -- I just build whatever the player wants to play.
Personally, I do like dual-classing being based on 3e multi-classing. I do it that way:
1) As soon as the character gets a new class, he now progresses in level using the highest EPP, whatever class he chooses to level up. (I.e.: a fighter-rogue always uses the fighter's EPP, even if he only has one level of fighter and several of rogue.) That may sound harsh, but it's simple, and it's the price to pay for dual-classing. After all, nobody forces players to dual-class if they don't like that hindrance.
2) Primes are determined at character creation as normal. If a character wants to dual-class in a class for which he doesn't have the required prime, he cannot. Simple.
3) BtH, saving throws, and hit-points stack. Class skills, abilities, etc. use the level of the relevant class. A 5th lvl fighter & 5th level wizard, is a 10th level character (saves), but casts spells as a straight 5th level wizard would, and has battlefield dominance as a 5th level fighter (despite having BtH of fighter + wizard). A 5th lvl rogue & 5th level assassin is a 10th level character, but backstabb and death-attack are as 5th level each. Only skills that belong to both classes stack (i.e.: get +10 to the roll), but Disguise which is only an assassin skill is at +5 to the roll, since the character is only a 5th level assassin.
4) All restrictions apply normally: fighter-mage can wear any armor, however cannot cast spells in armor.
_________________
www.lythia.com: Free resources for Harn but also adaptable to any medieval setting.
1) As soon as the character gets a new class, he now progresses in level using the highest EPP, whatever class he chooses to level up. (I.e.: a fighter-rogue always uses the fighter's EPP, even if he only has one level of fighter and several of rogue.) That may sound harsh, but it's simple, and it's the price to pay for dual-classing. After all, nobody forces players to dual-class if they don't like that hindrance.
2) Primes are determined at character creation as normal. If a character wants to dual-class in a class for which he doesn't have the required prime, he cannot. Simple.
3) BtH, saving throws, and hit-points stack. Class skills, abilities, etc. use the level of the relevant class. A 5th lvl fighter & 5th level wizard, is a 10th level character (saves), but casts spells as a straight 5th level wizard would, and has battlefield dominance as a 5th level fighter (despite having BtH of fighter + wizard). A 5th lvl rogue & 5th level assassin is a 10th level character, but backstabb and death-attack are as 5th level each. Only skills that belong to both classes stack (i.e.: get +10 to the roll), but Disguise which is only an assassin skill is at +5 to the roll, since the character is only a 5th level assassin.
4) All restrictions apply normally: fighter-mage can wear any armor, however cannot cast spells in armor.
_________________
www.lythia.com: Free resources for Harn but also adaptable to any medieval setting.
serleran wrote:
There are several problems . . .
Sorry, was that post in response to mine? The problems you mention don't seem to apply to my multiclassing system.
Well, there is one spot where I think you're right:
Quote:
You would also want to rule that class abilities specific to the class are based on the level of that class.
I would state it thus and add it to the multiclassing system above:
* When making an attribute check for a class ability, do not add the character level to the check. Instead, add the sum of all the levels of classes that grant that ability.
So for instance, a rog 4 / fighter 3 doesn't add +7 to Climb checks because he's a 7th level character; instead he only adds +4 because he's a 4th level rogue.
Quote:
Sorry, was that post in response to mine? The problems you mention don't seem to apply to my multiclassing system.
Yeah, I forgot -- it was someone else who wanted honest opinion about left-out details. You might not find the criticism valid, and that is fine - you don't have to - but I do think there are areas that needed more definition, especially regarding double-Prime class selection (which you've yet to consider) and "stacking" of class-specific abilities. That has been done, for the most part, but I still do not like the notion of giving a class away with no sacrifice, just as I don't have to.
If the goal is to remove archetypes (or create new, multiclass ones): congrats. You've done that. Same thing if you want to encourage every character to have two classes as there is very little incentive to be single-classed.
It would work great for a high(er)-powered game.
-
Aqua Vitae
- Mist Elf
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:00 am
I see that I am now a Skobbit...why can't I be a lowly Ogre, or even a Goblin? Why a Skobbit?!
Seriously...
My real question in this post is not if anyone has opted to simply stack class levels for skills, but whether anyone has thought of using a single XP table as in 3rd edition. The idea being that when you get to 2nd character level, you decide which class level to increase. So, there would be one XP table, rather than separate tables for each class.
One might require 2,001 XP for "2nd character level." So, Joe Blow, who started as a Knight, gets to "2nd character level," having earned sufficient (say, 2001) XP. He decides that he will dual class into Priest. At this point, he simply adds one level to Priest, and retains his one level in Knight, but he is still using only one XP table.
Later, he gets enough XP (say, 4,001) to get to "3rd character level." That gives him another level to work with, so he slaps it on to Knight, having decided to continue focusing on his Knightly career (though not necessarily to the future detriment of his Priest career...its just on hold). So, now he is a 2nd level Knight/1st level Priest with a total of 4,001+ XP.
See what I mean?
I am still personally inclined to stick with the "one XP chart per class" system, as I am a 1E nostalgist, and I like most of C&C as is, but it a theoretical issue I have been in philosophical turmoil over.
Seriously...
My real question in this post is not if anyone has opted to simply stack class levels for skills, but whether anyone has thought of using a single XP table as in 3rd edition. The idea being that when you get to 2nd character level, you decide which class level to increase. So, there would be one XP table, rather than separate tables for each class.
One might require 2,001 XP for "2nd character level." So, Joe Blow, who started as a Knight, gets to "2nd character level," having earned sufficient (say, 2001) XP. He decides that he will dual class into Priest. At this point, he simply adds one level to Priest, and retains his one level in Knight, but he is still using only one XP table.
Later, he gets enough XP (say, 4,001) to get to "3rd character level." That gives him another level to work with, so he slaps it on to Knight, having decided to continue focusing on his Knightly career (though not necessarily to the future detriment of his Priest career...its just on hold). So, now he is a 2nd level Knight/1st level Priest with a total of 4,001+ XP.
See what I mean?
I am still personally inclined to stick with the "one XP chart per class" system, as I am a 1E nostalgist, and I like most of C&C as is, but it a theoretical issue I have been in philosophical turmoil over.
There have been posts about it in the past - I've not seen anyone have a system I would consider adequate (I have not even liked my own - that's why I created two different ways of doing the same thing and am still looking for a better way) but that is my preference - the C&C classes are designed with a completely different paradigm in place than those of the d20 universe. If I were to do something like this, again, I might consider stealing an idea from The Arcanum, where there are, effectively, two XP charts - one for single class characters and one for multiclass characters. But, they also designate classes as either one or the other (ie, a Paladin, for example, would be dual-class because it has both fighter and cleric abilities.)
Aqua Vitae wrote:
My real question in this post is not if anyone has opted to simply stack class levels for skills, but whether anyone has thought of using a single XP table as in 3rd edition. The idea being that when you get to 2nd character level, you decide which class level to increase. So, there would be one XP table, rather than separate tables for each class.
I think the classes aren't balanced with eachother level-wise. That is, unlike d20, not all characters of 4th level are supposed to be roughly equivalent with eachother in terms of effectiveness. To make this kind of thing work you'd have to do some major rewriting of all the classes to bring them in line with eachother. Assuming you care enough about the balance issue . . . some groups do very well without worrying about balance at all.