Illusions?

[Jackal]

When I picked up the newest printing of the C&C phb I donated my 1st printing (I know, I know) to a good friend. But, when looking through my 3rd printing I get the feeling that some of the information regarding illusions and how they work was left out.

Now this may just be my imagination since I was away from the gaming table so long but I seem to recall more information on how illusions should be handled. But, either way, I think the next printing should really include a small blurb on disbelieving illusions under the Saving Throws section on page 112.

Just a small explanation of when you might get a disbelieving save and, maybe more importantly, when you would not. You can piece together some of this information by reading major image, minor image and illusory wall but there is no good reference for how illusion works in general.

For example, can you pass through all illusions as easily as illusory wall or does major image (since it can create the illusion of force) offer some "solid ground." So do you pass through the illusion of a fighter or does his shield block your blow?

If you create the illusion of a bit of floor to cover a pit trap using major image instead of illusory wall, can the person actually walk over it if you want them to (force again)?

I'd say all these questions, and more, could be answered (or at least give you enough information to answer them for your own games) with one or two paragraphs under the saving throws section.

Thoughts?

[bighara]

Jackal wrote:
Just a small explanation of when you might get a disbelieving save and, maybe more importantly, when you would not. You can piece together some of this information by reading major image, minor image and illusory wall but there is no good reference for how illusion works in general.

For example, can you pass through all illusions as easily as illusory wall or does major image (since it can create the illusion of force) offer some "solid ground." So do you pass through the illusion of a fighter or does his shield block your blow?

If you create the illusion of a bit of floor to cover a pit trap using major image instead of illusory wall, can the person actually walk over it if you want them to (force again)?

I'd say all these questions, and more, could be answered (or at least give you enough information to answer them for your own games) with one or two paragraphs under the saving throws section.

Thoughts?

While by no means official, but how I would handle the above examples (and cases like them):

In the case of the illusory wall and fighter with Major Image, the spell description says the illusion can be of a force, not containing force. I would rule that since any damage taken is to the mind/psyche, a person who fails to disbelieve an illusory wall pulls himself up short and subconsciously stops himself from going through it, taking damage in the process if done too forcefully (he thinks he's hit his head, so he's woozy). In the case of the illusory fighter's shield, the attacker would -if he missed- subconsciously divert his sword as if it had been parried.

In the case of the floor, unless the pit was small enough to step over, I would say no. The character isn't going to spontaneously levitate just because he thinks a floor is there (unless he's Wile E. Coyote). That would be the kind of contact that would pretty much auto-disbelieve as they fell. Likewise, in the case of the Fighter or the wall, definitive contact -i.e. hitting the body of the fighter solidly with your weapon or chucking a rock at the wall- would "pierce the veil" so to speak.

My 2 cp, at any rate.

[Jackal]

That's more of less how I handle those situations as well. But I'd still like to see a blurb regarding how illusions work and when you do or don't get saves to disbelieve. If nothing else, it would make life a lot easier on the "new to gaming."

As for myself, I don't allow illusions to create solid material or the "illusion" of said material either. But take illusory wall vs major image. Just touching an illusion doesn't reveal it to be such when cast by major image (if you touch a wall cast by major image you stop at the wall, thinking it is real unless you pass a save) but simply touching the wall cast by illusory wall will allow your hand to go right through (making it obvious to most that the wall is an illusion). Why the difference?

I've always assumed it was due to concentration (since illusory wall is permanent) but it would be nice to have some of these questions cleared up. Most important to me though, is a simple section under Saving Throws about disbelieving illusions and when you should or should not get a save in general.

For example, do you get a save the second you see an illusion or do you only get a save if something is a bit "off" with the illusion? I run with the former for my own reasons but some clarification or pros and cons for the new folks (and us old folks) would still be nice.
Edit: An example of what I'm talking about would be a much smaller version of the Illusions section of the D&D 2e PHB on pages 82 and 84.

[serleran]

I agree, and do not agree. The nature of illusion magic is such that it relies on Castle Keeper discretion, but on what basis? Some spells can do certain things - they do not have to. Some effects are believable by circumstance, while in others might be automatic failures. This is the power and flexibility of the class - there is no (or very few) set "this does exactly that" which is both annoying for those not accustomed to it (as player and Castle Keeper) but greatly imaginative if one accepts it as it is.

But, in general - illusions require something to make them actively believable, and retain their normal restrictions - how that happens is wholly dependent on what the illusion is, and how it interacts with the person doing the believing. For example, hallucinatory terrain designed to create a bridge over a ravine would not allow a believing individual to walk across it - that is simply physically impossible without some means to fly or levitate (ie, the spell does not impart any magical abilities onto the witness of the effect - it simply causes them to view and perceive it as real) but it would cause them to see and believe it is there, and therefore, attempt to cross it... leading to almost certain death if the ravine has high altitude. Likewise, an illusory wall, if not layered onto a real one, will be passable by anyone that disbelieves its presence, as it will simply cease to exist to their eyes.

Many illusions require full sensory overlay for effect, but these can be countered in their delivery - for example, a "force bolt" created via phantasmal force can be made to seem like a magic missile, something much more common and readily known. Mimicking is far more likely to cause believability than unique creations as the subject has nothing to base from, and expectation can shatter an illusion -- make a "fireball" without heat, and it has more likelihood of the "reality test." But, do the same thing with the heat but without the blast, and the whole is done away-- or, if you're very lucky, encounter someone who has no prior knowledge, and has to take it for face value assuming the fundamental criteria are met by the effect.

So, anyway, yeah... illusions are difficult to deal with because they are subjective. Castle Keepers should always consider what the effect actually does, how it is doing it, and grant a save when there is plausible reason for it. Never allow the illusion to do more than it actually states it can do and remember, the ones that bring in quasi-reality are extremely potent.

[Treebore]

Its a fantasy world. Mind over matter actually works. So if the mind is convinced its real, it is.

So when an Illusion is encountered I do a check for the illusionist, CL=level/HD of the creature to be effected. If the check fails the target notices something is "strange" and gets a save to realize its an illusion. Otherwise treat it as real as possible.

Now if it is an illusion that is heavily interacted with, such as an illusionary creature/fighter, then the Illusionist must roll a check every round to show they are, or are not, having the illusion react properly, etc... If they fail, the target gets to save again.

If its a fireball I don't bother with a Illusion save, its too quick, and pretty easy for an illusionist to mimic, as long as they are using an illusion that has all tactile capabilities.

I also require that Illusionists, in game, study real life examples of things to create illusions of. IE they study walls, how they look, textures, etc... they study fireballs, lightning bolts, creatures, watch fighters fight, creatures fight, etc...

So early on in their career I give them a +3 to their CL checks to make their illusions realistic enough to be believed. They actually have to keep a log/journal of things they have studied.

For quick things, like fireballs and other instantaneous spell effects, I have them do a INT check, CL=spell level being studied. For things they can spend minutes studying, or at least rounds, I usually just have them list it in their log as studied. Sometimes, like for highly skilled fighters, I may require them to study them fight for long periods of time. Which they are often able to do just by watching party members practice/spar.

Thats the general over view of how I handle Illusions.
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[Jackal]

serleran wrote:
But, in general - illusions require something to make them actively believable, and retain their normal restrictions - how that happens is wholly dependent on what the illusion is, and how it interacts with the person doing the believing. For example, hallucinatory terrain designed to create a bridge over a ravine would not allow a believing individual to walk across it - that is simply physically impossible without some means to fly or levitate (ie, the spell does not impart any magical abilities onto the witness of the effect - it simply causes them to view and perceive it as real) but it would cause them to see and believe it is there, and therefore, attempt to cross it... leading to almost certain death if the ravine has high altitude. Likewise, an illusory wall, if not layered onto a real one, will be passable by anyone that disbelieves its presence, as it will simply cease to exist to their eyes.

Many illusions require full sensory overlay for effect, but these can be countered in their delivery - for example, a "force bolt" created via phantasmal force can be made to seem like a magic missile, something much more common and readily known. Mimicking is far more likely to cause believability than unique creations as the subject has nothing to base from, and expectation can shatter an illusion -- make a "fireball" without heat, and it has more likelihood of the "reality test." But, do the same thing with the heat but without the blast, and the whole is done away-- or, if you're very lucky, encounter someone who has no prior knowledge, and has to take it for face value assuming the fundamental criteria are met by the effect.

Stick that in the 4th printing of the PHB along with a note suggesting whether to allow a save every time or just when something isn't quite right about the illusion and I'd say you've got all the info a CK would ever need to make up his or her own mind.
So, serleran, I take it you don't just hand out a save as they did in 2e but instead only give one if the circumstance warrants it? That seems to be the C&C default based major image and a few other spells but I've never actually run it that way. I'll have to give it a shot.

Basically, I've always liked the idea that an illusion (unless quasi-real) is an illusion and nothing more. If it's possible for the illusion to make you think you see something (an illusory fighter blocking an attack from your very real sword) then you do. Assuming the illusion is crafted well you get no save. But a poorly crafted illusion, on the other hand, can allow a save even without any interaction at all.

I've never actually run things that way as it creates a couple problems for me. The first being when to allow a save. Some cases are obvious and others are not. With the illusory fighter above, would the character get a save if he tried to grapple the fighter or would he continue to "see" what he wants, etc? The other problem is a concern that fewer saves would make the illusionist a bit too powerful. Which is why I've always run them as they were in 2e (pretty much get a save all the time with a higher or lower difficulty based on the quality of the illusion).

[serleran]

Quote:
So, serleran, I take it you don't just hand out a save as they did in 2e but instead only give one if the circumstance warrants it?

Yes, I do not simply allow a save - there are drawbacks of being an illusionist, such as knowing what your targets might find acceptable and take at face value; one trick might work for orcs, and an entirely different one for bugbears, for example. This does put more onus on the Castle Keeper, but I think that is warranted for a class that, effectively, makes reality anything they can imagine it to be... even if its just a dream.

[Jackal]

serleran wrote:
Yes, I do not simply allow a save - there are drawbacks of being an illusionist, such as knowing what your targets might find acceptable and take at face value; one trick might work for orcs, and an entirely different one for bugbears, for example. This does put more onus on the Castle Keeper, but I think that is warranted for a class that, effectively, makes reality anything they can imagine it to be... even if its just a dream.

Interesting. Like I said, that seems to be the C&C btb, I've just never given it a shot (haven't had many illusionists either). I've got a player who is rolling one up now so I'll have to try it by the book and see how things turn out.

As a helping hand, how do you deal with interaction with illusions? I'm with you on the illusory bridge not allowing a character to fly. But, assuming a well crafted illusion, at what point might a warrior doing battle with an illusory fighter be allowed a save?

And thanks to all for the conversation, it's much appreciated.

[Go0gleplex]

The whole secret to being a successful illusionist is subtlety (I think I spelled that right) Make the target think and react the way you want them to.

The more complex or involved the illusion, the greater chance for failure of its intended purpose. Has the illusionist seen that particular type of dragon they are trying to mimic? Has the victim? Little details can really screw a good illusion, particularly if the victim is familiar with the image.

I think a real good example of how illusions work was presented in the movie Dreamscape....the dream sequences, or even The Matrix in terms of explanation.

How you run them is up to you...just use common sense. (my two cents)
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[serleran]

Quote:
But, assuming a well crafted illusion, at what point might a warrior doing battle with an illusory fighter be allowed a save?

There are many things to consider for such a thing: is the illusion performing identically swing after swing? Does it perspire? Does it blink? Does it, effectively, act like a real person would? Does it show signs of fatigue? Is there a smell and sounds of pain, frustration, agony... etc. It would take a very well crafted illusion to keep this up for a long period. That is why, typically, direct interaction results in a save - failure means the viewer has "filled in the gaps" as it were. There is no real way to say with absolute certainty when a save would be allowed -- it could be immediate, or it could be after a while: is the phantom warrior simply being witness, or actively engaged? As you can tell: illusions are full of variables and it takes very special care to make the equations balance.

[Jackal]

serleran wrote:
That is why, typically, direct interaction results in a save - failure means the viewer has "filled in the gaps" as it were.

Perfect. Take this one line and add it to serleran's information I quoted above and you have (with minor editing) the perfect information to drop in the 4th printing of the PHB. Thanks again for all the comments.
Edit: I'll be hanging on to this for my own use and it would make a darn good addition to the PHB. All credit to serleran of course -

In general - illusions require something to make them actively believable, and retain their normal restrictions - how that happens is wholly dependent on what the illusion is, and how it interacts with the person doing the believing. For example, hallucinatory terrain designed to create a bridge over a ravine would not allow a believing individual to walk across it as that is simply physically impossible without some means to fly or levitate (ie, the spell does not impart any magical abilities onto the witness of the effect - it simply causes them to view and perceive it as real) but it would cause them to see and believe it is there, and therefore, attempt to cross it... leading to almost certain death if the ravine has high altitude. Likewise, an illusory wall, if not layered onto a real one, will be passable by anyone that disbelieves its presence, as it will simply cease to exist to their eyes.

Many illusions require full sensory overlay for effect, but these can be countered in their delivery - for example, a "force bolt" created via phantasmal force can be made to seem like a magic missile, something much more common and readily known. Mimicking is far more likely to cause believability than unique creations as the subject has nothing to base from, and expectation can shatter an illusion -- make a "fireball" without heat, and it has more likelihood of the "reality test." But, do the same thing with the heat but without the blast, and the whole is done away-- or, if you're very lucky, encounter someone who has no prior knowledge, and has to take it for face value assuming the fundamental criteria are met by the effect.

Typically, direct interaction results in an intelligence save to disbelieve. Failure means the viewer has "filled in the gaps" as it were.

[Treebore]

serleran wrote:
There are many things to consider for such a thing: is the illusion performing identically swing after swing? Does it perspire? Does it blink? Does it, effectively, act like a real person would? Does it show signs of fatigue? Is there a smell and sounds of pain, frustration, agony... etc. It would take a very well crafted illusion to keep this up for a long period. That is why, typically, direct interaction results in a save - failure means the viewer has "filled in the gaps" as it were. There is no real way to say with absolute certainty when a save would be allowed -- it could be immediate, or it could be after a while: is the phantom warrior simply being witness, or actively engaged? As you can tell: illusions are full of variables and it takes very special care to make the equations balance.

That is why I require in game "studying" and keeping a log of what they have studied. If its in their repertoire than no +3 to the CL check. If its something they have yet to study there is a +3 to the CL check. This is also one of the few instances where I allow an attribute modifier to effect a CL. Usually INT, but sometimes I would use WIS.
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[serleran]

I can see why you would, Treebore, but I find that level of bookkeeping to be redundant and no fun, personally. I use something akin to it, perhaps, but it harkens back to what I've been calling "assumed abilities." A 1st level fighter has probably heard that there are battle mage who have the ability to lay entire platoons to death with naught but a gesture: the last thing they see is a roaring flame before they pass to the next world, for example - he doesn't know all the details, but neither does the illusionist doing the casting mimic: they rely on assumptions - one would logically assume, perhaps, that when there is fire, there is heat, and if he roars (as he has been told it does), there is sound as well. The color of fire, too, is well known to anyone who has spent any time around it, but undoubtedly to a fighter who realizes "white hot" means exactly that... so any subtle variation in the fireball's colors might cause a problem. See, this is where you can get really fun: if you allow spell customization, you can throw all sorts of illusions at people and they'd never know, for certain: you have to have a reason to disbelieve, not simply "because I want to."

Oh, and thanks, Jackal. But, I would not put too much stock into my opinions - that's all they are. Be free to make your own mind up on how illusions work, and why. As long as its fun, and you're good with it, as a player and Castle Keeper (that is often the hard part - to remember that players want to be able to use this stuff) then enjoy. I don't want to come across as a pompous know-it-all, but I do anyway.

[Treebore]

I agree, but like you said, with an Illusionist their imagination is their limit. You need to keep them within the realm of "mortal" for as long as possible.

I had the great fun of playing a gnome illusionist to 21st level once. He ruled.
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[Jackal]

No worries serleran, you remember me from the old days. I have no problem arguing a point if I feel the need.
I'd actually like to see your explanation of illusions (or something very similar) go into the PHB as it fills a void in the way it should be filled. That being, of course, a solid framework that doesn't give you all the answers and isn't hard to monkey around with as needed.

It's not that I think the PHB should tell you how to deal with illusions (any more than you did above) but should tell you something about them without the player having to sift through a bunch of spells to cobble together his own ideas with no framework to start from. If it never makes it in, it's not the end of the world; it's just something I feel could easily be addressed....so, why not?

Or perhaps it'll find its way into the CKG.

[Zebulon]

Here is what I do about illusion spells:

Except otherwise noted, an illusion cannot deal physical damage, no matter what. There is higher level spells such as shadow magic that can recreate illusionary version of other spells (typically fireball) but only doing 20% or 40% of the damage a real fireball would do. Hence, if such a high level illusion does only a fraction of the damage a wizard spell of lower would do, why a low level illusion could deal damage at all? I mean: illusion of an arrow shot at you doesn't deal any damage. It's just a hologram of an arrow, with maybe the power to distract, but not to harm. As such, as a CK I always forbid that illusion spells could do damage to believers or not. Damage is the province of wizard spells.
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[Go0gleplex]

No...it can't do actual damage. But if someone believes they've been hit by a massive fireball...

Well...it's kind of like the story of the guy blindfolded in the helicopter. They told him they were 10000 feet up...and then pushed him out the door, when in fact they were only two or three feet up...and he dies of a heart attack.

Belief has its own power...even if there isn't any physical damage, illusion (and suggestion) can still be lethal.
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[ssfsx17]

For me, the difficult part is not to rationalize why illusion magic works at all, but rather, how it can be not too far behind wizard magic and yet have a totally different set of saving throws to resist or negate the effects.

The way I see illusionists (compared to wizards) is that they have real magical power. Their spells do real damage when you don't save against them. For me, the main difference between illusionists and wizards is that illusionists use their own minds to control pure force/energy to have the desired effects - but as a consequence, it is possible for someone else to use his own intellect and willpower to sever the illusionist's influence over a particular part of the magic that is wrought. Wizards are tapping into the very fabric of time and space, but consequently, it is possible to save against most wizard spells by being fast / strong within the physical area the wizard is acting on.

[Zebulon]

To each is own of course.

For me using illusions spells for dealing damage is abusing the rules. To make one die of fear with an illusion, there is a spell for it: Phantasmal Killer, a 4th level spell. To deal damage with illusory fireball, there is a spell for it (4th or 6th level, I don't remember): Shadow Magic, that deals only 20% or 40% of what the copied spell would do. This is the basis I use for illusions and death; and it tells me that low level illusions spells, that are basically holograms, are great for tricks and deceptions, but cannot be used to directly harm.

Now, if a player doesn't agree the way I rule it, I will tell him: "Why play an illusionist then? Why just don't play a wizard?". The thing is, I have always seen players searching ways to abuse the rules to their own advantages, to get an easy edge. I will simply don't allow that with illusionists. I envision illusionists as kind of charlatans. If they want to kill foes with illusions, it will be only indirectly, with deceptions and misdirections. It can be fun to play in itself. However, the player who wants to get the illusionist route to kill people with dozens of illusionary archers using a simple 1st or 2nd level spell, I will simply not allow it.
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[gideon_thorne]

I apply the KISS method. All illusions are real unless a character has a legit reason to believe they are not. The only ones who get a check to note something is not right, out of the gate, is the illusionist class.

Since I don't believe a given illusionist character or adversary is going to be walking around with a sign around their neck that says "I R an Illusionist" I see absolutely no reason to be captain obvious about it.

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Peter Bradley

[Go0gleplex]

I think the funniest trick I pulled as an illusionist was to have my illusionist cast an illusion of himself casting while hiding behind a bush...the enemy orcs charged of course....right over the cliff the illusion had 'extended a bit'....
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[Zebulon]

Go0gleplex wrote:
I think the funniest trick I pulled as an illusionist was to have my illusionist cast an illusion of himself casting while hiding behind a bush...the enemy orcs charged of course....right over the cliff the illusion had 'extended a bit'....

IMO, this is the way illusionists should be played.
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[Go0gleplex]

Like I said...the more subtle the illusion, the more successful things turn out.

Yes...but I'm also in the 'fireball illusion can kill' crowd, though it can't do actual damage... Sort of like a faith healer, ya know. *insane laughter*
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Treebore]

I agree it depends on the spell used. Like Major Image has "temperature" as part of what it does, so victims of a Major Image Fireball will be burned. Now if its a Minor Image Fireball they will not, all injuries will only be in the mind of the injured. Those outside of the area of effect will see no burns.

"Belief" is a very powerful thing. It can get you spells from gods, or cause you to burn even when the fireball isn't real.
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