Elven chain & rogue abilities

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:10 pm

I hate to ask such a "novice" question but... What is the effect of elven chain on thief abilities?

I glanced through my old books but have had to limit that ( little knee bitter hands like to grab what I'm reading & that has lead to a torn page -from a 3.e book -no great loss- & peanut butter hand prints in one of my cook books...)

I tried a search and got a list but as she is now bringing me her shoes I've about 3 min before I have to be in the back yard chasing grass hoppers or things will go bad...

Thanks (in advance) for the help & answers
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:20 pm

The short answer is "whatever you want".

The long answer is "there doesn't appear to be a specific ruling either way in the PHB or M&T. Strictly speaking, it is not on the Rogue's armour list and so functions like any other prohibited armour, but since Elvish Mail does not affect movement in any way and has an encumbrance value of 1 it would be logical to assume it has little affect on Thief abilities. However, you would probably have to decide for yourself whether it makes sufficient noise to matter when a character is attempting to move quietly."
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:06 pm

Not to mention the silvery metallic glints of reflecting light while trying to hide shadows.
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Jackal · Post by **Jackal** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:20 am

Heh...I still wonder what AC elven chain is really supposed to give in C&C since it's mithril and has a magic bonus of +4.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:46 am

Jackal wrote:
Heh...I still wonder what AC elven chain is really supposed to give in C&C since it's mithril and has a magic bonus of +4.

If I remember rightly, Serl has said a couple of times that it is +9 (+5 base and +4 for magical).

R-
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Tadhg · Post by **Tadhg** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:18 am

Matthew wrote:
The short answer is "whatever you want".

Absolutely!!

And there are various magical versions of this armor ~ heh, giving CKs lots of room for interpretation.

In my campaign world, rogues and wizards can wear elven armor with no penalties and mebbe some bonuses as well.

Not easy to come by, but it will be appropriate to their levels.

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Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:23 am

Thanks for the info. I like the "what ever you want" mind set if I was the CK...

I guess I'll ask L.S. as he is/was CKing the game.

Rhuvien in my world that would be my out look.
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Jackal · Post by **Jackal** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:09 pm

Rigon wrote:
If I remember rightly, Serl has said a couple of times that it is +9 (+5 base and +4 for magical).

R-

As I recall, that's what we came up with when M&T first came out. The idea being that the cloth-thin armor didn't count the normal armor bonus but, instead used the mithril (+5) and magic (+4) for a total of +9.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:10 pm

I probably would house rule this, but according to the RAW, +9 would be correct. See my comments in the M&T errata thread.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:40 pm

Being effectively weightless does not grant any release of the restrictions -- Polish hussar plate mail enchanted with telekinesis to lift itself would not allow a thief (rogue) to move silently in it...

phadeout · Post by **phadeout** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:26 pm

Well, guess I will bring up AD&D 2nd ed. again. Elven chain, I think, should effect rogue abilities something like Studded Leather would. 2nd ed ahd something like this, and I feel it was about right.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:38 pm

phadeout wrote:
Well, guess I will bring up AD&D 2nd ed. again. Elven chain, I think, should effect rogue abilities something like Studded Leather would. 2nd ed ahd something like this, and I feel it was about right.

Yeah, those first turn up in Unearthed Arcana (and so were probably first published in Dragon):

Pick Pockets: -20%

Open Locks: -5%

Find/Remove Traps: -5%

Move Silently: -10%

Hide in Shadows: -10%

Hear Noise: -5%

Climb Walls: -20%

Read Languages: n/a

...which would probably equate into C&C as roughly:

Pick Pocket: -4

Open Lock: -1

Traps: -1

Move Silently: -2

Hide: -2

Listen: -1

Climb: -4

Decipher Script: n/a
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Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:01 am

Mathew Thanks I never thought to look in UA... Thanks

Serl. I never thought of it that way. It does make a good point I'll have a beer or 2 more and think on it.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:13 am

No problem; I recently discovered (I think it was Gideon maybe who pointed it out?) that the Unearthed Arcana errata includes modifiers for the full range of armour.
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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:06 am

As with anything in C&C, change what you want to fit your concepts. So if you want to add elven chain to the rogues list of allowed armor, knock yourself out.

R-
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Lord Veighn Yhaull · Post by **Lord Veighn Yhaull** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:02 pm

I have a question to go along with this one.

What about Silenced Elven Chainmail.

I.E. each individual mithral/mithril chain link coated in a thin layer of leather.

It could again make the armor a +9 (AC 5 + 4 = AC 9).

Being that the leather is so thin, it wouldn't add an AC bonus (those links are tiny) and might add some added weight..(+1 EV/ maybe - full silenced elven chain suit?) but effectively drop the scores maybe something like.

Pick Pockets: CC -3

Open Locks: CC 0

Traps: CC 0

Move Silently: CC -1

Hide: CC -1

Listen: CC 0

Climb: CC -4 (CC -5 full silenced elven chain suit)

Decipher Script: N/A

This, of course, would be MUCH harder to comeby than regular elven chain (full suit being extremely rare) due to the time needed to wrap and sew each little bit of leather around the mithril link during the creation process of weaving the links together in a flowing pattern.

Any thoughts?

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:31 pm

Does anyone mind if I ask for a clarification?
The +5 for for the elven chain...is that from serleran ruling only? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I just want to make sure. Also, is mithril covered in M&T (or elsewhere)? I cannot seem to find it. Basically I'm just wondering what the justification of the +5 for the armor itself came from and what role mithril plays in it.

And since we're on the topic of armor, is the +4 Dwarven Plate Full Plate or Plate Mail? I'm wondering if the bonus for the armor part is +7 or +8 (or something else entirely different ).
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:46 pm

Mithral. Page 89 M&T
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:58 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Mithral. Page 89 M&T

Thanks, Peter.

The only thing I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is the +5 itself. If I fashion a suit of Plate Mail out of Mithril, then the AC of the armor actually drops (talking non-magical plate)? Sorry for my confusion.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:34 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
Thanks, Peter.

The only thing I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is the +5 itself. If I fashion a suit of Plate Mail out of Mithril, then the AC of the armor actually drops (talking non-magical plate)? Sorry for my confusion.

Mithril itself, as I understand it, conveys a +5 bonus. That's on top of the AC provided by the armor.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:37 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Mithril itself, as I understand it, conveys a +5 bonus. That's on top of the AC provided by the armor.

Okay, so in the earlier example of chainmail, would it be +5 for the mithril, +4 for the magical bonus, and then another +6 for the chainmail? The +6 wasn't mentioned in the earlier examples, and that's where the confusion was/is coming from in my case. Let me know if I'm not thinking correctly.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:13 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
Okay, so in the earlier example of chainmail, would it be +5 for the mithril, +4 for the magical bonus, and then another +6 for the chainmail? The +6 wasn't mentioned in the earlier examples, and that's where the confusion was/is coming from in my case. Let me know if I'm not thinking correctly.

Well. In the M&T it says Elven Chain is +4. So there are two possibilities, either the +4 is a typo and its supposed to be +5 as a magical bonus(for mithril) or maybe elven chain is so thin that, even though its made of mithril, some of the enchantment is lost.

Either way, its the bonus of the chain armor and the +5 only.
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:20 pm

IMHO the Adamantine and Mithral bonuses are total munchkinism and conflict with their own descriptions - if mithral is "lighter than iron but just as hard" why isn't there a weight and armour penalty reduction instead of a huge bonus?

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:33 pm

Sounds rational to me, hoss.

I think I'm going to take this discussion to another thread, as to not derail this thread any further. Thanks, Peter, and my apologies to the everyone else!
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:39 pm

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
IMHO the Adamantine and Mithral bonuses are total munchkinism and conflict with their own descriptions - if mithral is "lighter than iron but just as hard" why isn't there a weight and armour penalty reduction instead of a huge bonus?

Elven chain weighs a quarter what regular chain does. One could logically assume that the same weight reduction could follow through on all manner of mithril armor.
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