Rules for PC Regents and Kingdoms in C&C...

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:19 pm

I have Birthright, and while it is a great campaign system and easily adapted to C&C, it is incredibly complex, probably to much so for some of my players. Not only that, but the rules are tied very closely into the setting.

I've also looked at Eden Studios Fields of Blood supplement, but besides the fact that it is harder to convert from D20 to C&C, it is also twice as crunchy as Birthright (and that's saying something).

No, what I'm looking for is a simple, possible scalable set of rules for using the PCs as the rulers of kingdoms, baronies, provinces, etc. along with rules for determining the results of Mass Combat, and both of them need to be simple to use and allow for a good bit of player strategizing without totally replacing the role-play aspect with wargaming.

So has anyone done something like this?

Are these sorts of rules going to be in the CKG?

If not, I guess I'll make it up myself and post the rules here somewhere...

clavis123 · Post by **clavis123** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:41 pm

Right now I'd suggest using the Stronghold and Dominion rules from the old D&D Rules Cyclopedia, along with the War Machine and Siege Machine for mass combat. The War Machine really is a nice little strategy game unto itself.

Of course, I'd also like to see somebody work up some SIEGE rules for Dominions, if they're not going to be in the CKG.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:12 pm

clavis123 wrote:
Right now I'd suggest using the Stronghold and Dominion rules from the old D&D Rules Cyclopedia, along with the War Machine and Siege Machine for mass combat. The War Machine really is a nice little strategy game unto itself.

War Machine and Siege Machine? What are those?

clavis123 · Post by **clavis123** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:39 pm

Luther wrote:
War Machine and Siege Machine? What are those?

They're the mass combat rules from Classic D&D, and can be found in the Companion Set and the Rules Cyclopedia. Both are out of print, of course, but can be had as PDFs. If you don't have a copy of the classic Rules Cyclopedia I really suggest either downloading one, or hitting eBay and picking up a used hard copy.

Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:42 pm

War Machine and Siege Machine were rules sets developed for Frank Mentzer's BECMI D&D boxed sets. I'm not sure about Siege Machine, but I know Frank did not write War Machine (but he strongly endorses it). War Machine is designed to simulate mass battles (kind of like Battle System, but as near as I can tell War Machine is infinitely better and simpler). I believe Siege Machine is designed to simulate a siege on a castle/fortress (I haven't really looked at these rules). Both War Machine and Siege Machine are included in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia (the RC is a one-volume hardback that combines most of the rules from Mentzer's Basic, Expert, Companion, and Masters boxed sets).

Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:44 pm

The RC is regularly up for sale on eBay, but a good quality copy can be expensive. I think I paid something like $45+shipping for a mint copy about 6-9 months ago.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:03 pm

Did a bit of Net-romancy and looked through the RC.

I owned this stuff over a decade ago and had forgotten about these rules. Good stuff, though. Very simple, to the point and easily adaptable to C&C. I think a more interesting treatment of Dominions is probably in order, something that will inspire more personal involvement for the PCs. Perhaps a mix of RC with the best bits of Birthright and Fields of Blood.

Any other ideas or material written on these subjects...?

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:12 pm

Buttmonkey wrote:
War Machine and Siege Machine were rules sets developed for Frank Mentzer's BECMI D&D boxed sets. I'm not sure about Siege Machine, but I know Frank did not write War Machine (but he strongly endorses it). War Machine is designed to simulate mass battles (kind of like Battle System, but as near as I can tell War Machine is infinitely better and simpler). I believe Siege Machine is designed to simulate a siege on a castle/fortress (I haven't really looked at these rules). Both War Machine and Siege Machine are included in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia (the RC is a one-volume hardback that combines most of the rules from Mentzer's Basic, Expert, Companion, and Masters boxed sets).

I agree with this 100%. I didn't use it long, because I switched to AD&D around the time we got to that power level, but we did use it a few times. Absolutely wonderful rules. I can't think of any additional mass combat rules off-hand, so if War Machine and Siege Engine aren't what you're looking for then I cannot be of any help, but I just wanted to be another voice of agreement in these two systems.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:00 pm

Quote:
So has anyone done something like this?

Bowbe. The rules were tested at Troll Con, and other places. Should see the light of day soon -- perhaps in CKG or a Haunted Highlands supplement.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:17 pm

Quote:
Bowbe. The rules were tested at Troll Con, and other places. Should see the light of day soon -- perhaps in CKG or a Haunted Highlands supplement.

Cool. Can you describe them? Were they basically C&C derivitives of the RC rules or more like Birthright? How detailed are the Dominion rules?

Any Trolls wishing to chime in on on this would be welcome...

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:22 pm

They are rules for mass combat, including sieges -- they are not derivatives of anything that I can easily and factually state as such.

I do not know if they include "dominions" as such -- that is partially covered in M&T as-is, but not in any great depth.

Specifics will not, and cannot, be discussed -- thing called a NDA, you know.

Of course, lots could have changed since I last saw anything for it.

Oh, and sieg was working on some stuff for this a while ago, too... don't know what came of that. He might know.

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:36 pm

The upcoming Castellans Guide to Castles & Dominions will have rules on territorial rulership, though probably short of full kingdoms. I spoke to Steve at TC and since the Arms & Armor guide is done he wants me moving on this one ASAP. Still, can't give a publication date. Soonly...???

Re: Mass Combat..... Do you mean as a wargame or as an abstract formula to handle battles? As stated above Bowb has come up with a really cool concept for wargaming mbattles that (IMO) is simple, keeps things moving quickly, is faithful to the Siege Engine and allows PCs to influence battles without being either Ubermensche or getting wacked by a midget with an icepick.
As for an abstract formula, I've got two for the CGCD called "War Engine" and "Sea Engine" that hearken back to the old methods noted earlier from D&D. However, two things I went for that are quite different from the earlier concepts are

1. A simpler system with far fewer finniky modifiers to stick in and what mods there are being based more on HD and troop quality.

2. A system to allow a limited number of field maneuvers (charge, shield wall, flank, etc.) for each side and the result being a further modification to the final results.

So, I'm hoping to have this MS into Steve's absent-minded hands by September or so.
HTH,

Mike
_________________
Always remember, as a first principle of all D&D: playing BtB is not now, never was and never will be old school.- Tim Kask, Dragonsfoot

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:21 pm

Quote:
Re: Mass Combat..... Do you mean as a wargame or as an abstract formula to handle battles? As stated above Bowb has come up with a really cool concept for wargaming mbattles that (IMO) is simple, keeps things moving quickly, is faithful to the Siege Engine and allows PCs to influence battles without being either Ubermensche or getting wacked by a midget with an icepick.

Well, either way works for me as long as it's medium crunch, i.e. easy to play with enough detail to allow players to come up with strategies that can actually affect the battle. From what you described, it looks like there are some cool things on the horizon from TL. Unfortunately, with the CKG's release date being so nebulous and the CGCD not even appearing on the site yet, it looks like I'll be cobbling something together myself for now. Consider some of your ideas for modifying the RC system yoinked.
I have thought very seriously of using the DBA based 'Hordes of the Things' system for field battles in which the players actively take part. It's easy, doesn't require a horde of models (I'll probably use card 'elements') and is fairly accurate concerning the use of various unit types against each other (spearmen vs cavalry vs. basic foot infantry, for example) without bogging the game down with a ton of rules. Along with the normal modifiers used in that game, I thought I'd add the HD of the creatures involved and the damage of their weapons to the roll as well as add a few special abilities like regeneration, but other than that, it should work well as is.

For battles that take place outside their presence of which they'll only recieve news some time afterwards, I think a simplified version of the RC system will suffice. It will definately be easier for the CK to resolve other realm's conflicts that way. I just have to meld it with HotT in regards to buying elements. Much to ponder...