CON Saving Throws for equipment?
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AmonThoth69
- Henchman
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:00 am
CON Saving Throws for equipment?
Hello everyone, I was wondering if I could ask for some insight into this. I've noticed there are places in the rules (ie The 'Shatter' spell description) that items make CON saving throws to avoid breakage. I can't find any source of reference within either book to clarify this process (is it a Prime or Secondary check, CON values for equipment, etc...). Maybe I'm misreading, not looking in the right places, etc. But if I could get a little help with this I would be very appreciative. Thank you in advance for your responses and Happy Gaming to you all!
You decide if the item would be resilient to the attack -- if so, its base save is 12, rather than 18. For its modifiers, it gets the item creator's level (or lower -- your call but should always be the minimum needed to create the item in the first place) and the difficulty of the save is the opponent caster's level.
So, if you're talking about, say, a glass vial holding a potion of wish (yeah yeah) against shatter cast by a 13th level meanie...
Glass is not resistant to breakage so its save base is 18. The glass, itself, is not magical, so no modifier (the CK is nice and decides to give half the level creator's level to it anyway) for a +9 (minimum to cast wish is 18) against a difficulty of 13...
This comes out to d20 + 9 > 18 + 13...
The potion is doomed to failure and shatters.
Now, if we change that to a quartz container that is resistant to breakage, we get:
d20 + 9 > 12 + 13 -- needs a 16 or more.
Or, you can ask me for my modified system based on AD&D.
So, if you're talking about, say, a glass vial holding a potion of wish (yeah yeah) against shatter cast by a 13th level meanie...
Glass is not resistant to breakage so its save base is 18. The glass, itself, is not magical, so no modifier (the CK is nice and decides to give half the level creator's level to it anyway) for a +9 (minimum to cast wish is 18) against a difficulty of 13...
This comes out to d20 + 9 > 18 + 13...
The potion is doomed to failure and shatters.
Now, if we change that to a quartz container that is resistant to breakage, we get:
d20 + 9 > 12 + 13 -- needs a 16 or more.
Or, you can ask me for my modified system based on AD&D.
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AmonThoth69
- Henchman
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:00 am
Sweet!! Thanks for the reply, it was very helpful. If you could share your system I would like to see how you've modified it, sounds interesting. I've just joined the Crusade not too long ago and am trying to get back into the gaming hobby I loved when I was younger. I remember DMing AD&D before Unearthed Arcana came out...LOL. So any good conversion from those rules are looked upon with heavy nostalgia and a warm heart.
Unless Steve says it can go in, I won't be including it -- actual content is still his purview, but I do have some say on certain topics. 
Though, it's been available freely for some time:
Item Saving Throws
Material - A / C / NB / D / F / FB / MF / NF / Fr / L / E
A = Acid
C = Crushing
NB = Normal Bludgeoning
D = Disintegrate
F = Fall
FB = Fireball
MF = Magic Fire
NF = Normal Fire
Fr= Frost
L = Lightning
E = Electricity
Bone or Ivory: P / -- / P / -- / P / -- / P / P / P / P / P
Ceramic: P / -- / P / -- / -- / P / P / P / P / P / P
Cloth: P / P / P / -- / P / -- / -- / -- / P / -- / P
Crystal or Vial: P / -- / -- / -- / -- / P / P / P / P / -- / P
Glass: P / -- / -- / -- / -- / P / P / P / P / -- / P
Leather or Book: P / P / P / -- / P / -- / P / P / P / -- / P
Liquid*: -- / P / P / -- / P / -- / -- / -- / P / -- / --
Metal, Hard: P / P / P / -- / P / P / P / P / P+ / P / P
Metal, Soft or Jewelry**: -- / -- / P / -- / P / -- / -- / P / -- / -- / P
Parchment or Paper: -- / P / P / -- / P / -- / -- / -- / P / -- / P
Stone, Small or Gem: P / -- / P / -- / P / P / P / P / P / -- / P
Wood or Rope, Thin: P / -- / P / -- / P / -- / P / P / P / P / P
Wood or Rope, Thick: P / P / P / -- / P / P / P / P / P / P / P
If an item is subjected to an attack form to which its save, listed above, is marked P, then a d20 is rolled, modified appropriately, against a difficulty of 12 plus the level or intensity of the attack; in all ways, this save is treated identically to the saving throw method utilized by characters. If the save is not listed as P then the base difficulty is 18, modified as above.
*-- Category includes potions, magical oils, poisons, and acids. If the save is successful, the container saves automatically.
**-- Category includes pearls and all non-precious and semi-precious gems.
+-- If the item is struck within one round of being subjected to a frost attack, a save vs. Crushing is required, at a -10 penalty.
Magic items have a flat +2 bonus on all saves, with an additional +1 per enchantment bonus. In addition, if an item, magical or not, is subjected to an attack form of its own mode, the save is made with a +10 bonus.
Example: A wand of fireballs is subjected to the area of effect of a fireball spell; the wand gains a +12 (+10 from same mode; +2 flat) bonus to its save vs. fireball to resist destruction.
Example Two: A steel shield is struck by the awesome might of an ogres giant club. The shield gains a +10 bonus on its save vs. normal bludgeoning to resist being destroyed.
Artifacts and relics, at the Castle Keepers discretion, and on an individual basis, can be considered to be indestructible, requiring a very specific process to destroy. Alternatively, a Castle Keeper can apply a bonus to all save categories, say, with a +6 bonus, rendering them improbable to be destroyed, but still leaving it possible.
Attack Forms
Acid This category assumes a tremendous amount of exposure or subjection to a potent acid, such as the effects of a Black Dragon breath attack, or immersion for an extended period of time. In the latter case, a save is only made after the item has been thusly exposed, and is not required if the object is removed before the timeframe expires; as a general rule of thumb, an item must be immersed for one round per 50 gold pieces of its base value. A magic item extends this duration by +1 round per enchantment bonus. In the event of a direct attack, such as the Black Dragon example, the difficulty modifier is equal to the Hit Dice or level of the source; in the case of simple exposure, the difficulty modifier begins at 1, and increases cumulatively per round of exposure, beginning the round after the item must initially save in this way, the longer an object is left in acid, the more likely it is to be destroyed.
Example: A magical long sword +1 is accidentally dropped in a vat of potent acid. It has two rounds (15 GP cost / 50 = 1; +1 for +1 magic bonus) before it must save. On the third round of immersion, a save is required, with a +1 modifier to the difficulty. Its base is 12 (for being a hard metal, saving against an acid attack), and gets a +3 bonus. A 10 or higher is required (d20 + 3 >= 13,) but a 7 is rolled and the sword is destroyed.
Crushing This category assumes a hefty impact with a powerful force, such as that delivered from a giants attack, or collision with an unyielding surface. In the case of an attack, such as one delivered by an Ogre or a Stone Giant for example, the Hit Dice or level of the source is added to the difficulty of the save; in the case of the secondary use of this save category, such as a glass vial being hurled and striking a metallic surface, the difficulty modifier is equal to double the Strength modifier with a minimum of 1. If a Strength modifier is unknown, then the Fall save should be used, instead.
Example: A Dwarf Fighter with 14 Strength is facing a group of Skeletons, when the character decides to hurl a glass vial of holy water at them. A hit is determined. The glass vial must make a save against a difficulty of 20 (18 base, +2 for the characters Strength modifier doubled), and a 17 is rolled, resulting in failure. The vial shatters, and spills its contents.
Normal Bludgeoning This category assumes average impact, such as the ordinary striking of blunt weapons to armor in melee, or the collision of a heavy object upon another. If an object collides with a durable, but slightly yielding surface such as water, this save category is also applied. In all respects, the rules as stated for Crushing, above, apply.
Disintegrate This category applies to any exposure to the spell disintegrate, and the level or Hit Dice of the source is always used to affect the save difficulty.
Fall This category assumes an object has fallen at least 5 feet and come into direct contact with a hard surface. If the object impacts against a softer surface, such as wood or cloth, a +1 bonus is applied to the save; if the object impacts with a fleshy surface a +5 bonus is applied. However, for every 5 feet of falling distance, increase the save difficulty by one.
Example: A leather book slips out of a wizards backpack as he levitates up a mountainside. The book falls 25 feet, and strikes the trailing halfling thief. The book must make a save against a difficulty of 17 (12 base, +5 for falling 25 feet), but gets a +5 bonus on the check, due to the impact against a fleshy surface. A 14 is rolled, and the book survives the fall.
Fireball This assumes exposure to any tremendous heat, such as that created by the spell fireball and meteor swarm, the effects of a Red Dragons breath, or immersion in lava. In the latter case, the rules for immersion in Acid, above, apply. In all other cases, the Hit Dice or level of the source are used to determine the save difficulty.
Magic Fire This category assumes direct contact with any magical effect not listed in Fireball, above, and having the word Fire or Flame in its name, such as fire storm or flame strike. The Hit Dice or level of the source is used to determine the save difficulty.
Normal Fire This category assumes direct and prolonged exposure to intense mundane fire sources, such as a bonfire or flaming oil. An object that is highly susceptible to burning, such as paper, must immediately save or be destroyed. Other items require additional rounds of exposure at the Castle Keepers discretion. Each round beyond the initial timeframe increases the save difficulty by 1 in this way, the longer an item is left to burn, the more likely it is to be destroyed.
Frost This category assumes exposure and direct contact with any form of intense cold, such as the effects of a White Dragons breath or the magic spells cone of cold and ice storm. In all cases, the save difficulty is modified by the level or Hit Dice of the source.
Note: A hard metallic object that is exposed to a Frost attack and then subjected to any form of blunt trauma within 1 round after must make a save against Crushing, at a -10 penalty.
Lightning This category assumes exposure to any spell with the word Lightning in its name such as lightning bolt or call lightning, and the effects of a Blue Dragons breath. In all cases, the save difficulty is modified by the level or Hit Dice of the source.
Electricity This category assumes contact with any lesser magical electricity effect, such as shocking grasp and the electrical effects of an electric eel. In all cases, the save difficulty is modified by the level or Hit Dice of the source.
Though, it's been available freely for some time:
Item Saving Throws
Material - A / C / NB / D / F / FB / MF / NF / Fr / L / E
A = Acid
C = Crushing
NB = Normal Bludgeoning
D = Disintegrate
F = Fall
FB = Fireball
MF = Magic Fire
NF = Normal Fire
Fr= Frost
L = Lightning
E = Electricity
Bone or Ivory: P / -- / P / -- / P / -- / P / P / P / P / P
Ceramic: P / -- / P / -- / -- / P / P / P / P / P / P
Cloth: P / P / P / -- / P / -- / -- / -- / P / -- / P
Crystal or Vial: P / -- / -- / -- / -- / P / P / P / P / -- / P
Glass: P / -- / -- / -- / -- / P / P / P / P / -- / P
Leather or Book: P / P / P / -- / P / -- / P / P / P / -- / P
Liquid*: -- / P / P / -- / P / -- / -- / -- / P / -- / --
Metal, Hard: P / P / P / -- / P / P / P / P / P+ / P / P
Metal, Soft or Jewelry**: -- / -- / P / -- / P / -- / -- / P / -- / -- / P
Parchment or Paper: -- / P / P / -- / P / -- / -- / -- / P / -- / P
Stone, Small or Gem: P / -- / P / -- / P / P / P / P / P / -- / P
Wood or Rope, Thin: P / -- / P / -- / P / -- / P / P / P / P / P
Wood or Rope, Thick: P / P / P / -- / P / P / P / P / P / P / P
If an item is subjected to an attack form to which its save, listed above, is marked P, then a d20 is rolled, modified appropriately, against a difficulty of 12 plus the level or intensity of the attack; in all ways, this save is treated identically to the saving throw method utilized by characters. If the save is not listed as P then the base difficulty is 18, modified as above.
*-- Category includes potions, magical oils, poisons, and acids. If the save is successful, the container saves automatically.
**-- Category includes pearls and all non-precious and semi-precious gems.
+-- If the item is struck within one round of being subjected to a frost attack, a save vs. Crushing is required, at a -10 penalty.
Magic items have a flat +2 bonus on all saves, with an additional +1 per enchantment bonus. In addition, if an item, magical or not, is subjected to an attack form of its own mode, the save is made with a +10 bonus.
Example: A wand of fireballs is subjected to the area of effect of a fireball spell; the wand gains a +12 (+10 from same mode; +2 flat) bonus to its save vs. fireball to resist destruction.
Example Two: A steel shield is struck by the awesome might of an ogres giant club. The shield gains a +10 bonus on its save vs. normal bludgeoning to resist being destroyed.
Artifacts and relics, at the Castle Keepers discretion, and on an individual basis, can be considered to be indestructible, requiring a very specific process to destroy. Alternatively, a Castle Keeper can apply a bonus to all save categories, say, with a +6 bonus, rendering them improbable to be destroyed, but still leaving it possible.
Attack Forms
Acid This category assumes a tremendous amount of exposure or subjection to a potent acid, such as the effects of a Black Dragon breath attack, or immersion for an extended period of time. In the latter case, a save is only made after the item has been thusly exposed, and is not required if the object is removed before the timeframe expires; as a general rule of thumb, an item must be immersed for one round per 50 gold pieces of its base value. A magic item extends this duration by +1 round per enchantment bonus. In the event of a direct attack, such as the Black Dragon example, the difficulty modifier is equal to the Hit Dice or level of the source; in the case of simple exposure, the difficulty modifier begins at 1, and increases cumulatively per round of exposure, beginning the round after the item must initially save in this way, the longer an object is left in acid, the more likely it is to be destroyed.
Example: A magical long sword +1 is accidentally dropped in a vat of potent acid. It has two rounds (15 GP cost / 50 = 1; +1 for +1 magic bonus) before it must save. On the third round of immersion, a save is required, with a +1 modifier to the difficulty. Its base is 12 (for being a hard metal, saving against an acid attack), and gets a +3 bonus. A 10 or higher is required (d20 + 3 >= 13,) but a 7 is rolled and the sword is destroyed.
Crushing This category assumes a hefty impact with a powerful force, such as that delivered from a giants attack, or collision with an unyielding surface. In the case of an attack, such as one delivered by an Ogre or a Stone Giant for example, the Hit Dice or level of the source is added to the difficulty of the save; in the case of the secondary use of this save category, such as a glass vial being hurled and striking a metallic surface, the difficulty modifier is equal to double the Strength modifier with a minimum of 1. If a Strength modifier is unknown, then the Fall save should be used, instead.
Example: A Dwarf Fighter with 14 Strength is facing a group of Skeletons, when the character decides to hurl a glass vial of holy water at them. A hit is determined. The glass vial must make a save against a difficulty of 20 (18 base, +2 for the characters Strength modifier doubled), and a 17 is rolled, resulting in failure. The vial shatters, and spills its contents.
Normal Bludgeoning This category assumes average impact, such as the ordinary striking of blunt weapons to armor in melee, or the collision of a heavy object upon another. If an object collides with a durable, but slightly yielding surface such as water, this save category is also applied. In all respects, the rules as stated for Crushing, above, apply.
Disintegrate This category applies to any exposure to the spell disintegrate, and the level or Hit Dice of the source is always used to affect the save difficulty.
Fall This category assumes an object has fallen at least 5 feet and come into direct contact with a hard surface. If the object impacts against a softer surface, such as wood or cloth, a +1 bonus is applied to the save; if the object impacts with a fleshy surface a +5 bonus is applied. However, for every 5 feet of falling distance, increase the save difficulty by one.
Example: A leather book slips out of a wizards backpack as he levitates up a mountainside. The book falls 25 feet, and strikes the trailing halfling thief. The book must make a save against a difficulty of 17 (12 base, +5 for falling 25 feet), but gets a +5 bonus on the check, due to the impact against a fleshy surface. A 14 is rolled, and the book survives the fall.
Fireball This assumes exposure to any tremendous heat, such as that created by the spell fireball and meteor swarm, the effects of a Red Dragons breath, or immersion in lava. In the latter case, the rules for immersion in Acid, above, apply. In all other cases, the Hit Dice or level of the source are used to determine the save difficulty.
Magic Fire This category assumes direct contact with any magical effect not listed in Fireball, above, and having the word Fire or Flame in its name, such as fire storm or flame strike. The Hit Dice or level of the source is used to determine the save difficulty.
Normal Fire This category assumes direct and prolonged exposure to intense mundane fire sources, such as a bonfire or flaming oil. An object that is highly susceptible to burning, such as paper, must immediately save or be destroyed. Other items require additional rounds of exposure at the Castle Keepers discretion. Each round beyond the initial timeframe increases the save difficulty by 1 in this way, the longer an item is left to burn, the more likely it is to be destroyed.
Frost This category assumes exposure and direct contact with any form of intense cold, such as the effects of a White Dragons breath or the magic spells cone of cold and ice storm. In all cases, the save difficulty is modified by the level or Hit Dice of the source.
Note: A hard metallic object that is exposed to a Frost attack and then subjected to any form of blunt trauma within 1 round after must make a save against Crushing, at a -10 penalty.
Lightning This category assumes exposure to any spell with the word Lightning in its name such as lightning bolt or call lightning, and the effects of a Blue Dragons breath. In all cases, the save difficulty is modified by the level or Hit Dice of the source.
Electricity This category assumes contact with any lesser magical electricity effect, such as shocking grasp and the electrical effects of an electric eel. In all cases, the save difficulty is modified by the level or Hit Dice of the source.