4e and C&C

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
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Post by papercut »

Camazotz wrote:
Alternatively, just take the level of the creature and use that to determine how many hit dice it has...easy!

I like that idea, what about the AC? The art in the book is cool enough to make me want to pick it up and use it.
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Post by Luther »

Camazotz wrote:
Hey, on the HPs thing I'd just use this formula:

C&C HD = (4E HP-(monster levelX6))/8(or appropriate die code); round up or down, or add remainder like a bonus to HP... Alternatively, just take the level of the creature and use that to determine how many hit dice it has...easy!

But then the question becomes, why spend $35 and go through all that math when you can just taken one of your OD&D/BD&D/1e/2e MMs and just convert AC by subtracting from 19/20 and figure out whether the save is P, M or Both?

I can do that on the fly, without paper and pencil. Can't say that is as easy with the 4e MM...

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Post by Lord Dynel »

Luther wrote:
But then the question becomes, why spend $35 and go through all that math when you can just taken one of your OD&D/BD&D/1e/2e MMs and just convert AC by subtracting from 19/20 and figure out whether the save is P, M or Both?

I can do that on the fly, without paper and pencil. Can't say that is as easy with the 4e MM...

Yeah, I kind of agree with Luther on this. No offense intended, none in any way, Camazotz but I can get just about any monster I'd ever want from Basic and/or Advanced D&D monster sources and they are ever so easy to convert that it literally takes no effort to so. I mean to each their own and all, but if left to my own devices I'll take the easier-to-convert route.
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Post by Aladar »

I am also with Luther. I use monsters from the AD&D Monster Manuals, Fiend Folio, and OD&D books all the time for my C&C game. Very easy to convert on the fly too.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Even as someone who plays 4e, I'd sooner convert out of AD&D MM's. Path of least resistance and all.

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Post by papercut »

I have browsed through the 4e MM and I like the ideas for the monsters and the tactics they use, but the math is kinda whacky when compared to older D&D. Has anyone figured out a way to convert the AC to a C&C format? I believe that 4e adds half the characters level to AC so maybe that can be subtracted. In addition, the Dex mod could also be subtracted from the AC to make it lower.

I need to read a bit more of the book to get the gist of it. There are too many numbers for me at first glance.
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Post by Luther »

papercut wrote:
I have browsed through the 4e MM and I like the ideas for the monsters and the tactics they use, but the math is kinda whacky when compared to older D&D. Has anyone figured out a way to convert the AC to a C&C format? I believe that 4e adds half the characters level to AC so maybe that can be subtracted. In addition, the Dex mod could also be subtracted from the AC to make it lower.

I need to read a bit more of the book to get the gist of it. There are too many numbers for me at first glance.

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Too many numbers based on a mathematical system completely removed from older editions. The designers weren't trying to build on to the old systems, but making a new one, so I doubt they has a point of reference that you can suss out.

If you want to use the mosters in the 4e MM along with their specific tactics, just use the tactics. To create a Kobold Slinger, figure out what a glue pot does and then arm your C&C kobolds with it. If you want a Kobold Wyrmpriest, give a C&C kobold a level of wizard spells. You want Kobold Minions, give them 1 HP.

In other words, stop worrying about how to directly transfer one system from another ( a lost cause) and just figure out what the end result should be and apply it as you see fit using the rules at your disposal...

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Post by Treebore »

Well, there is a way to mathematically deconstruct the AC of 4E critters, and removing half the levels from their AC value would be a good, and the biggest, start.

However Luthers last sentence sums up the easiest way to do it very nicely.
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Post by papercut »

Luther wrote:
Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Too many numbers based on a mathematical system completely removed from older editions. The designers weren't trying to build on to the old systems, but making a new one, so I doubt they has a point of reference that you can suss out.

If you want to use the mosters in the 4e MM along with their specific tactics, just use the tactics. To create a Kobold Slinger, figure out what a glue pot does and then arm your C&C kobolds with it. If you want a Kobold Wyrmpriest, give a C&C kobold a level of wizard spells. You want Kobold Minions, give them 1 HP.

In other words, stop worrying about how to directly transfer one system from another ( a lost cause) and just figure out what the end result should be and apply it as you see fit using the rules at your disposal...

Ty ty,

I have to travel by foot and rail to where I DM, I just wanted to see if there was a way to travel light. As it is, I have so much really great info from many non splat book sources, it is too bad I have to limit what I carry. RC, Creature Catalogue, 1e DMG, C&C core books, 4e MM, 2e MM, and various other sundries. They all have some useful info and art (which I need). The C&C core books do nicely though.

Cheers
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Luther wrote:
If you want to use the mosters in the 4e MM along with their specific tactics, just use the tactics. To create a Kobold Slinger, figure out what a glue pot does and then arm your C&C kobolds with it. If you want a Kobold Wyrmpriest, give a C&C kobold a level of wizard spells. You want Kobold Minions, give them 1 HP.

In other words, stop worrying about how to directly transfer one system from another ( a lost cause) and just figure out what the end result should be and apply it as you see fit using the rules at your disposal...

I agree with this. That would be the best way to do it, IMHO, instead of trying to convert from one set to another via formulas. Honestly, I like the idea of minions. It's something that could have been used in the game for years - that may be part of why I like it. It's something that would take no converting; just give the creatures 1 hp. As for the rest of the converting - I'd say if you really, really want 4e creatures in your game then recreating would be the way to go, as opposed a hard conversion.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Converting from any system to the one you are playing largely is reliant on you being knowledgeable in the system you are converting to.

Hard, systemic conversions are largely a waste of time. Intuition and knowledge of your game are #1.

For 4e to C&C conversions, the 4e statblocks are easy and you can largely use "as is". Primary thing needing changed? HP's.

Do you need a formula? Nope, just drop the HP's to where they should be for an equal level C&C game. If you are feeling really cagey, you can tweak the AC as well but it is not needed. Using a slightly higher AC, in most cases, will not ruin the encounter.

Powers can be used as is without any real problem.

Skills, use as is for SIEGE checks related to those areas.

No hard math needed, and you open up a new avenue of critters to use for your game with no more work than HP tweaking which is easily done on the fly.

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Post by papercut »

DangerDwarf wrote:
Converting from any system to the one you are playing largely is reliant on you being knowledgeable in the system you are converting to.

Hard, systemic conversions are largely a waste of time. Intuition and knowledge of your game are #1.

For 4e to C&C conversions, the 4e statblocks are easy and you can largely use "as is". Primary thing needing changed? HP's.

Do you need a formula? Nope, just drop the HP's to where they should be for an equal level C&C game. If you are feeling really cagey, you can tweak the AC as well but it is not needed. Using a slightly higher AC, in most cases, will not ruin the encounter.

Powers can be used as is without any real problem.

Skills, use as is for SIEGE checks related to those areas.

No hard math needed, and you open up a new avenue of critters to use for your game with no more work than HP tweaking which is easily done on the fly.

First of I'd like to state that I just purchased the PDF of the M&T and satisfied with my purchase. It is a very dense tome of information and advice. I will be using it and the 4th edition in the next few weeks to see which book best suits my play style (which I would characterize as improvised narrative, with no minis). At present, I primarily use C&C as an entertaining educational tool. I aim to keep book count low as I need to carry my gaming/tutoring bag around when I CK.

After browsing throught the 4e books, I have found how to adapt the 4e MM to C&C. It is not too difficult, more of a task of ignoring unnecessary info. As DangerDwarf states above the HP and AC are the numbers most needing porting. There are a few ways to do it, the keys are in the Chapter 10 of the DMG, the DM's Toolbox. On page 174 there is a formula on how to find a monsters effective armor bonus. This bonus is found by subtracting 10 and the higher of a monster's Dex or Int modifier from the AC. At lower levels a CK can just do this to make a monster more inline with C&C. Sometimes the higher number will make an AC too low for low level characters, if this is the case, subtract the higher mod instead. This method may be most useful for lower level monsters as the differences smooth out.

On page 184, the are crunchy guidelines for creating new monsters in 4e. It states that AC in 4e is created on a chart. Basically, AC is 14 plus the level of the monster. There is a +/-2 mod on the AC based on the role of the monster. A CK could create a chart to account for the 2-6 point difference in AC between 4e and C&C (I am assuming the C&C starts with AC 10 for monsters).

Its all pretty straightforward. 4e mathematically is not that much different than prior editions, it is mostly in the implementation. At first I thought some of the higher level monsters' AC seemed kinda wacky, but C&C also has some wacky ACs for the higher level villains. As BtH escalates, so should the ACs.

Monster damage is often based on weapon plus Str mod, the Str can be ignored (or kept). Special abilities can be eyeballed. Hp can easily be ported by merely using the levels as HD. Certain monsters in 4e are higher in level than the C&C counter parts due to the fact that C&C is based on a 20 level (?) progression while 4e is based on the 30ish.

The reason I am interested in this is due to the fact that the 4e MM has more tools for improvised play. I am not really all that experienced as a CK, so it is helpful.
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Post by papercut »

So to simplify in a nice clean C&C manner,

1) Change levels to hd.

2) Subtract 4 from AC.

3) Ignore or keep anything else and adjust accordingly.

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Post by moriarty777 »

papercut wrote:
So to simplify in a nice clean C&C manner,

1) Change levels to hd.

2) Subtract 4 from AC.

3) Ignore or keep anything else and adjust accordingly.

Cheers

With regards to point two... I read in your previous post that the base was 14 as opposed to 10 and this explains the 'Subtract 4 from AC' statement. But didn't you also write in you previous post something about the creature's level?

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Post by papercut »

moriarty777 wrote:
With regards to point two... I read in your previous post that the base was 14 as opposed to 10 and this explains the 'Subtract 4 from AC' statement. But didn't you also write in you previous post something about the creature's level?

M

The thing about the levels was misguided. After looking at some of the crunchier bits, subtracting 4 in general gave one better results (but not always- hehe). Actually after some more reading and the acquisition of a list of monsters from M&T by level, I think I can swipe the 4e encounter construction method for C&C. I'll write more about my thinking later, it is late over here.
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