Rolling stats ?

StealthSuitStanley · Post by **StealthSuitStanley** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:16 pm

Greetings all...

I'm new to the boards, but not to rpg's. I just started playing C&C with some friends and love it!

In my experience, hero's are just that, heroic. Thus, they are in alomst all cases above average. In games I have run, I give my players a point value for the total of all stats and allow them to put the points where they want. Maximum limit to that of racially modified maximum roll (usually 19), and minimum limit of a stat that imposes a -1 penalty. Then I say that the stats must be within so many points, lowest to highest. This allows them to build the character they want, and keeps them all around the same power level.

The reason I like C&C is that as a character progresses in levels, the stats become less and less important. Around 3rd level or so, the bonus any stat could provide is overshadowed by the bonus from the level. At mid to high levels, stat bonuses are almost ineffective. All of which, in my thinking, is more realistic than any other rpg's.

later

SSS

Mike Frank · Post by **Mike Frank** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:58 pm

I used to use methods that would generate "heroic" statistics. I recently started a new campaign and had the players roll 12 sets using 3d6 in order. Pick one set -- no swapping.

The characters turned out ok. My wife ended up with a wizard with a 3 strength. My wife describes him as having one leg that is slightly shorter than the other and an under developed/twisted arm. I think it encouraged her to roleplay the character more to justify the low stat.

It makes sense now that I'm seeing it, but it was a pleasant surprise to see the roleplaying generated due to lower stats.

I wrote a program to generate 12 sets of stats and apply racial modifiers to get an idea of what kind of characters would be generated. I actually prefer rolling real dice, but I needed a fast way to generate several sets. I may go ahead and turn this into a complete character generator.

Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:01 pm

Welcome to the Crusade SSS, nice comment of the importance of experience, not ability scores. I never looked at it like that before. But in the camapign I just put on hiatus the most powerfull character was the monk whose stats were 16 Str 13 Dex 16 Con 9 Int 9 Wis 11 Cha, she had no problems whatsoever.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:48 pm

SSS,

For checks you are correct, but for to hit bonus, damage bonus, AC DEX bonus, and HP CON bonus, they stay important.

I have no problem with anyone playing a low stat character. If that is what they want to do, fine. Just realize everyone else is most likely going to use my house system, so when your MR. Whimpy and they are all Conan's, don't cry about it.

Of course the rest of my house rules allow for you to increase your stats through training of some type, so no one would have to stay Mr. Whimpy, weak minded, or whatever.

Like your wifes character, whats to say that with some clericl healing and good conditioning, given time the character couldn't get their leg and arm fixed and eventually be as strong as they want to be? It is a magical world, after all. Heck, even in our mundane reality similiar feats have been achieved.

Mike Frank · Post by **Mike Frank** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:19 pm

Wow, that was a confrontational response.
If my post truley elicited that kind of response, I apologize. It was unintentional.

I'm just saying how we've been playing the game.

No one is saying that the character couldn't get healing and training. Maybe even a demonic arm...

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:41 pm

I wasn't being hostile. I was just saying I allow for high stat generation. People who want to play low stat characters are welcome, but don't think that just because you chose to play a low stat character everyone else is going to.

I say this because I played, not DMed, in a game about two years ago where a guy insisted on playing his character "as rolled" and then whined about it until his character died. Then whined about how everything was "too powerful", etc.... This was in the Banewarrens adventure. Gee, he played a fighter type who had a negative AC bonus and average strength, and got whacked rather easily in a tough fight. Duh!

So that is why I encourage high stat generation, and have house rules to allow improvement of stats in game during lengthy downtimes, usually the winter months.

So I'm sorry I came across hostile, that was not my intention.

Mike Frank · Post by **Mike Frank** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:01 pm

No problem.

By the way, I should have included in my first post that I am allowing the characters to add 1 to any attribute for every 3 levels of experience. I was very hesitant to do so at first. I want to run characters from low to high level and see how the game works before I go tweaking rules. But, I'm running the party through the AD&D Temple of Elemental Evil and it's starting to look like the party is underpowered even though they have reached 4th and 5th level. I give out experience pretty fast, so the level progression is pretty quick. They've reached thier current level in about 30 hours of gaming. Last night when they ran into the guards with fighters backing them up, one of the fighters had a javlin of lightning that would have killed the Barbarian without divine intervension (which I had to call because it was someone else playing my son's character and he wouldn't be to happy if his character was killed after we made him go to bed!)

Anyway, I will probably return to more "heroic" characters, but I want to see how the game plays as it was designed and play tested before I insert too many house rules.

And I can see how someone whining about thier own decision could be extremely irritating. In my case though, all the characters were generated the same way. Besides, if I told my wife she was whining I'd probably be sleeping in the basement.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:06 pm

ToEE is definitely a meat grinder type of dungeon. High stats would definitely help make it more surviveable.

Just another reason/example of why I encourage high stats. Adventures like ToEE, Rappan Athuk, Tomb of Abysthor, etc... almost require "heroic" stats to have a decent chance of survival, even if good tactics are used.

StealthSuitStanley · Post by **StealthSuitStanley** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:33 pm

Ha!

I found the rules I used for creating character stats!

-Choose your own ability scores.

-Total of all scores added up = 75 points max.

-Ability Maximum = 18 (before racial effects).

-Ability Minimum = 8 (before racial effects).

-No two ability scores can be the same.

This lets the player design exactly what they want without having to rely on the luck of the dice. We all know how a low roll can ruin a players outlook.

I challenge anyone to create a character using these rules that is overpowered. Granted, overpowered is relative.

Heroic I like. Overpowered I can deal with. It usually causes me to give the party challenges that are more based on the overpowered character's low abilities.

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:23 pm

We roll 4d6, drop the lowest and assign at will. I'm relatively lax about it since there really isnt a huge bonus for getting higher rolls.

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:33 pm

You should hide this thread from the people in my PbP over at the C&C Online forum.

They are 3d6 arrange to taste. Just like in my home campaign. In that sense, I'm a grinder kind of CK.
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PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:44 pm

angelius wrote:
You should hide this thread from the people in my PbP over at the C&C Online forum.

They are 3d6 arrange to taste. Just like in my home campaign. In that sense, I'm a grinder kind of CK.

Too Late!! As much as I hate your method, I love it too. I have mostly always been a DM, and any characters I have ever played did not have too crappy of stats (none where that outstanding either). I have always thought though the challenge of playing a PC is not playing those of exceptional ability, but those of challenged abilities. I have had the want for the longest time to make the characters use 3d6 six times, arrange no mercy. You play what you have. I have never had the courage to actually make my players do that, however. So, when I rolled up Cim for your campaign, I was a little disappointed in his stats, but at the same time, he is more challenging to play. I want him to survive. Challenging stats, but the character of the character makes him good.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:16 am

See, my opinion on that is my games are challenging enough. You don't need to be "further challenged" by playing a character with average or lower stats.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:16 am

For me, it's not so much how I decide to go about rolling my stats... my some silly reason, one player just doesn't get the bonus distribution for the stats in C&C... Not even the fact that they are lower than 3.x but how average (9-12) and slightly above/below ( 13 - 15 and 6 - 8 ) cover 3 ranks as opposed to 2. To me that makes *PERFECT* sense as it just helps hammer the spread of average rolls.

That is ALSO why I do 4d6 and drop the lowest except if it is a 1 (giving a range of 4-19 before racial mods) creating better odds for the heroes to be above average.

Some players just make me mental!

Moriarty the Mad... er... I mean Red

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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:53 pm

I mostly agree with Treebore on this, but as the GM I do try to give everyone a chance to shine, even those that mightve gotten a raw deal on their stats. I also think that your character class has a good deal to do with whether or not a low stat character will be viable in the long run. I feel that front line characters such as fighters and paladins should have decently high stats in str and con at least. I think classes like rogue and cleric can get away with lower scores, especially in larger parties. In smaller parties it is more important for everyone to have higher rolls since the distribution of combat is going to be skewed against those with crap scores.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:46 pm

You might also use a method where all PC are created using 4d6 - lowest, arrange to taste; and all NPCs are created using 3d6, arrange to taste.

I did this back in the 2E days.

...................................Omote

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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:52 pm

When it comes to NPC's they have what I want/need them to have, the stats I don't care about I randomly roll.

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:31 pm

Except for bar wenches. It's important then.

Nothing like letting a PC pick up a bar wench only for her to turn around with a 5 CHA.
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Laslo Tremaine · Post by **Laslo Tremaine** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:45 pm

angelius wrote:
Except for bar wenches. It's important then.

Nothing like letting a PC pick up a bar wench only for her to turn around with a 5 CHA.

Two words.

Beer goggles...

PeelSeel2 · Post by **PeelSeel2** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:35 am

Laslo Tremaine wrote:
Two words.

Beer goggles...

Worn only when courousing with lots of alcohol. Makes everyone of the opposite sex appear as an 18 CHA for that night. Morning Side effects include: Loss of arm, headache, embarassement, shame, and kids (if not used in conjunction with Ring of Protection).
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magehammer · Post by **magehammer** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:57 am

4d6 drop the lowest. mulligan your lowest score, but must accept the mulligan even if it's lower.

Place where you want.

I run a really tough game, so I like to give the PCs a good chance to survive.

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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:50 pm

magehammer wrote:
I run a really tough game, so I like to give the PCs a good chance to survive.

You think *your* game is tough, try playing in the Troll Lords game. Steve is a freakin' EXECUTIONER of a CK. My character is developing mental disorders from seeing so many of his comrades perish at the hands of the enemy.

Mhu Thulan · Post by **Mhu Thulan** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:00 pm

Traveller wrote:
It is a slightly higher average, which is why current iterations of the Basic Role Playing system by Chaosium

use 2d6+6 for several attributes.

Here's your averages:

3d6 = 10.5 (round up to 11)

4d6, drop lowest = 12.25 (round down to 12)

2d6+6 = 13

It's also worth noting that 2D6+6 has a much 'flatter' distribution of results. Chance of getting an 18 with one roll:

3d6 = 1 in 216

2d6+6 = 1 in 36

So with 6 stats and 2d6+6 you'll have about one character in six with an 18 score.

(4d6, drop lowest) gives you a 1 in 61 chance of an 18 with each roll, but I think it's only skewed - the distribution is about the same shape.

rob

(Edited to turn smilies off)

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:04 pm

You people with your math and "averages" make my head hurt.

I've always sucked at math so I'm glad there are those of you out there who can enlighten us ignorant on all that stuff.

If it were left to me to figure out all I could say is: "Wow. Magic Numbers!"

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:58 pm

Mhu Thulan wrote:
It's also worth noting that 2D6+6 has a much 'flatter' distribution of results. Chance of getting an 18 with one roll:

3d6 = 1 in 216

2d6+6 = 1 in 36

So with 6 stats and 2d6+6 you'll have about one character in six with an 18 score.

(4d6, drop lowest) gives you a 1 in 61 chance of an 18 with each roll, but I think it's only skewed - the distribution is about the same shape.

I wasn't bothering with the probabilities of getting 18's, but that's very informative. With 1d6+12 then, it would stand to reason that the chances of getting an 18 on one roll would be one in six. After this, I'm sure someone is bound to take all this stuff and do an article. Of course DangerDwarf's head might explode with all the math.
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Mhu Thulan · Post by **Mhu Thulan** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:57 pm

Quote:
After this, I'm sure someone is bound to take all this stuff and do an article.

Yeah, I can imagine a general article about different ways of rolling stats, and their effects on the game. Could include this stuff about probabilities, plus a bit of discussion about reasons for doing this. For example:

1a) To give players more control (so they don't feel like the luck of the dice has made them fundamentally weaker than the next guy)

or 1b) To take away control, to make players work with what they get ("old-school" style)

2) To make the PCs "heroic" (i.e. tougher than the normal NPCs in the world, who have stats rolled on a lesser scale)

3) To cope with the expectations of players coming from 3E et al (where the numbers are on the same scales, but generally higher... a character with a net of +1 stat mods might seem weak to such a crowd)

In this vein, I'm a bit confused by some of the comments in this thread. E.g:

magehammer wrote:
I run a really tough game, so I like to give the PCs a good chance to survive.

Surely, if you boost PC stats to meet the game, then it's not "a really tough game" any more? I.e. the effort you've put in to making it "tough" (I'm guessing you mean "tougher than the rules and most players assume") is then wasted because you've brought

the players up to the same level.

(I can understand this where you're running published modules that seem to assume PCs with high stats, because otherwise it

would be extra effort to tune the whole module down.)

Treebore wrote:
Players, at least all the ones I have ever GMed, like high stats. So I give it to them. Besides, I lilke my NPC's and monsters to have high stats. Average and low stats are fro the "common" folk!

Just to check... this is my (2) above, right? "Average" is the average of NPCs in the game, and players like to be a cut above them? As in "step aside, peasant, my lowest stat is higher than your average"?

rob

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:18 pm

The other day I talked my wife into rolling up a character for C&C. First I tried it as the book said, but with three sets the highest number rolled was 11, with the majority being 7-9. So I let her use 4D6 drop low. Results; 17, 17, 16, 13, 12, 11. We now have the choice of character roll-up firmly set.

Scurvy_Platypus · Post by **Scurvy_Platypus** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:14 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
You people with your math and "averages" make my head hurt.

I've always sucked at math so I'm glad there are those of you out there who can enlighten us ignorant on all that stuff.

If it were left to me to figure out all I could say is: "Wow. Magic Numbers!"

*shrugs* I'm still a complete knuckle-dragger when it comes to figuring out that sort of math.

So I cheat and use this handy-dandy free program...
http://www.fnordistan.com/smallroller.html

It can even make a pretty picture.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:45 pm

That a cool little program.

Hey rob, since you seem to have a good grasp of the math and have already put a decent ab=mount of thought into it why don't you write up an article for Crusader? I think a lot of people would benefit from seeing how the numbers work and the odds of getting what kind of results and such.

Personally I hate point buys, and I would love it if some people could realize that they can get "fair characters" for all their players with the right rolling method.

Unless they are like me and want "heroic" PC's as often as possible. Which I have seen that two or three others here are.

babbage · Post by **babbage** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:22 am

Nice program, Scurvy. I shall be playing around with it soon I guess.

For me though, I allow my players to roll 4d6 - lowest; and keep rolling until they get a set with at least 2 x 16s. In my experience of rpgs in general, unless the stats are truly heroic, they play a very minor part in the game.

Over time (sometimes a very short time), the characters have their 'flavour'. Despite having good dex scores, always missing with your bow will label you as 'clumsy' - unfair or not.
Having said that though, low stats do make things harder - which is why I prefer stats to be above average.
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