Hi Level Play in C&C

commanderFuron · Post by **commanderFuron** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:49 am

I was wondering if anyone had run any games for players 12+ yet. I have run higher level games in several game systems including OD&D, 2e, and 3.5 but they all have certain playability issues at that level. I was wondering what the C&C experience was at the lofty epic levels. - I know they have not been fully detailed, but I just mean using the extrapolated information from the PH plus any houserules.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:28 pm

Ah, this topic would been seen by more people up in the section titled: Castles & Crusades: The Rules, The Laws and the Chaos. This section is more for the Wilderlands of High Fantasy.

Look to the poster Treebore who regularly plays high-level C&C. He knows a thing or two about this high-level style of play in C&C.

-O
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commanderFuron · Post by **commanderFuron** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:34 pm

I see that I posted this in the wrong forum any chance it could get moved?

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:37 pm

MODS! HEY MODS, MEATLOAF!

-O
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:11 pm

moved.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:16 pm

Spellcasters, if not already, become gods at high level play for various reasons, but mostly because they get awesome spells that have few restrictions. Monsters, also, tend to get far deadlier, and with the Prime mechanic in effect, character death is more common than, say, even AD&D. So, keep the cleric alive... or you'll end in TPK quickly. Like most games, the play style tends to shift somewhat, but it does not have to.

I ran some actual Gods in C&C (had to for a project I'm working on) and it worked OK... have to make a few adjustments here and there.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:31 pm

serleran wrote:
I ran some actual Gods in C&C (had to for a project I'm working on) and it worked OK... have to make a few adjustments here and there.

Sounds like somebody's spilling the beans on an D&D Immortals/Primal Order style C&C supplement. What do you say, Serl? Hmmmm?
With the XP levels being what they are in C&C, I never really saw a campaign lasting past 12th. I mean, with the typical life schedule of the average aged C&C gamer, it would take years of play just to get that far, so that's a very interesting question.

I'm of the opinion that Mages deserve to be powerful if they've managed to survive that long (es[ecially if it means they can go longer without having to stop the whole adventure for an 8 hour kip), but there are plenty of ways to make sure that they don't overpower the rest of the party. Spell slots, for instance, are still limited and if you constantly put in challenges that require them to use up some of those slots on plain old utility stuff, they'll have less room for the game breakers.

For instance, if your player knows that you will occasionally put in areas that can only be reached by flying, he will typically keep at least one extra slot filled with a fly spell for just such an occasion. Light spells are very useful if you keep blowing out or dousing the party's torches, and when the party is freezing and the local kindling is too wet to start a fire, those flaming hands and fireballs might have to be put to another use.

Those aren't the best examples, but you get my drift. Basically, if the players never encounter anything but combat to challenge them, they'll learn pretty quick to stock up on Fireballs and such. But if you constantly change it up, they'll always be second guessing their spell picks, even at high levels...

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:06 pm

Serleran had to write up conversion notes for Lejendary Pantheons, and ensure the statistics would work in the purview of C&C, and not LA. It is possible these might end up in Gods and Demons, as well... I don't control content, I just do what I am asked.

commanderFuron · Post by **commanderFuron** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:42 pm

What about just starting at like 10th. I personally am on a kick to play higher level stuff because it is something I have not played a lot of over the years. Starting at first and ending by 10th or sooner is what we have done pretty much for years. I'd like to find a way to run adventures like Fafhrd and Grey mouser in the later years, or like Gotrek and Felix fighting the chaos giant.

Basically mundane challenges are not an issue anymore but legendary adventures are the order of the day. What I have seen happen in the higher level games like in OD&D that I ran was the players could slay like 1000 goblins, but died easily based on saves. I am interested in limiting the save or die aspect and making low level encounters still seem to matter. I don't know about you guys but my players are a bunch of hardened killers that would rather solve a plot point by stabbing it than interacting with it.

commanderFuron · Post by **commanderFuron** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:39 pm

This is what I have been thinking for Higher level C&C.

The progression for classes change a little after 12.

Each class would get an additional set of high level class abilities.

BTH bonus would increase at a steady rate for all classes = +1 every other level.

Then like legendary challenge numbers base 24 plus modifiers to perform actions beyond what a normal man could do. Climb a sheer surface.

One time bonus of +1 to your primes at 13th.

At 15th you can ignore the roll of 1, once per day - your just that legendary.

Nothing that shatters the game but stuff that make the characters tougher to survive against the horrible monsters the CK sends after them.

Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:57 pm

Luther wrote:
For instance, if your player knows that you will occasionally put in areas that can only be reached by flying, he will typically keep at least one extra slot filled with a fly spell for just such an occasion. Light spells are very useful if you keep blowing out or dousing the party's torches, and when the party is freezing and the local kindling is too wet to start a fire, those flaming hands and fireballs might have to be put to another use.

Excellent ideas. I can't wait for our next SKYPE session. Any other suggestions on how I should screw with -- I mean, challenge the party?

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:52 pm

commanderFuron wrote:
This is what I have been thinking for Higher level C&C.

The progression for classes change a little after 12.

Each class would get an additional set of high level class abilities...SNIP

Excellent idea! But how about introducing Fate Points, ala WFRP. You get 1 every few levels and they can be used daily to 'reroll' or get 1/4 of your HP back (the infamous Healing Surge). Alternately, you can use one permanently to keep from dying when you hit whatever level that occurs at. That way, you are truly 'fated' for a greater destiny.

Buttmonkey wrote:
Excellent ideas. I can't wait for our next SKYPE session. Any other suggestions on how I should screw with -- I mean, challenge the party?

Ah. the new cruelty.
Ain't gonna bother me though. You've probably noticed that I typically spread out my selection for just that reason. Years of experience as a devious manipulator (i.e. DM, or as the players like to call me, 'heartless rat bastard') has prepared me for your game...

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:57 pm

Hi level play is pretty much like it was in 1E and 2E. Deadly. Look at a Druid casting Creeping Doom. A dragon destroying spell if there is one. A destroy anything spell. So at higher level your definitely going to want to use spell casters as the NPC opponents a lot more. Then you have to worry about failing non prime saves. So the PC spell casters better get hot on counter spelling (Using Dispel Magic) and using defensive spells such as the invulnerability spells, fire shield, etc... and I as the CK better know them as well for the NPC's and design magic items that help make surviving magic much more possible.

Plus a Fighter type in an Anti Magic Shell is the death of any spellcaster if the fighter is able to get the mage/cleric/druid within the shell, so make sure he can dimension door, etc... as well as put up a Anti Magic Shell.

As for above 12th level play I keep the BtH progression going just like they have been since level 1.

I also use Luck Point rules to allow re-rolls (except for natural 1's) for pretty much anything, or to burn one permanently to turn a death into a deaths door (-6).

At high level rings, cloaks, etc... that boost your saves are likely your most prized possessions.

Plus I think I have an easier time with high level games because I accept that high level characters are basically super powered beings. So treating them more like a Marvel or DC Comic type story I find I approach the game design for the encounters appropriately.

Around 15th level I also tend to take the campaign to other planes. This gives me the freedom to create super powered opponents, and have the campaign world make sense with such high level and high powered individuals. They are on other planes, fighting and exploring, occasionally returning home for vacations. Most never come back, helping to explain the rarity of 18th level mages, fighters, clerics, etc... in the campaign world. I assume 90% of all adventurers who go plane hopping never return.
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commanderFuron · Post by **commanderFuron** » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:00 pm

I love Fate Points. We have been useing them in campaigns since Omote introduced us to them. Over the years their use has been tweaked but Fate Points are a great way to give the PC's some power over bad luck. Plus I love WHFRP but no one ever wants to play it because of how deadly it is against even the most standard fantasy monsters.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:38 am

Treebore wrote:
Around 15th level I also tend to take the campaign to other planes. This gives me the freedom to create super powered opponents, and have the campaign world make sense with such high level and high powered individuals. They are on other planes, fighting and exploring, occasionally returning home for vacations. Most never come back, helping to explain the rarity of 18th level mages, fighters, clerics, etc... in the campaign world. I assume 90% of all adventurers who go plane hopping never return.

Brilliant! That's a great validation!

As for plane hopping, it reminds me of The Eternal Champion series as well as the BD&D Blackmoor Series. Fantasy and Sci-fi in a glorious pulp mixture. Consider this idea for high level play yoinked.

commanderFuron wrote:
I love Fate Points. We have been useing them in campaigns since Omote introduced us to them. Over the years their use has been tweaked but Fate Points are a great way to give the PC's some power over bad luck. Plus I love WHFRP but no one ever wants to play it because of how deadly it is against even the most standard fantasy monsters.

Yep, it's definately a necessity in WFRP, but then that game has a completely different feel. I play WFRP for my low fantasy fix and C&C for a more heroic High Fantasy game. While I like the uncertainty of characters in the beginning, I think introducing Fate Points after the characters reach a certain level really brings home the high powered destinies Treebore mentioned above. So both of these elements will definitely find their way into my high level games...

Jason Vey · Post by **Jason Vey** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:18 pm

This reminds me...I did, in fact, post high level character options on my website for C&C. I'd completely forgotten about that.
http://www.grey-elf.com/candc/hlc.pdf

Valerian · Post by **Valerian** » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:16 pm

I have been running a heavily house ruled C&C adventure set in GH castle. The party is 15-19th level 4 characters strong and no cleric. I am a bit liberal on non magic healing . I allow people to rest and recover a number of HP a few times a day. To save the clerics spells for other uses.

I also allow characters a neg. threshhold = level + con stat. similar to Gaxmoor rules I believe.

I also use a bit different siege mechanic. I found the 12/ 18 prime system too tough. So I use a base check 0f 15(+ the CL or HD) for all saves, checks ect . To this is added your level if class based or save , stat bonus, then +5 if the stat is prime.

Their toughest battle was against a 20 HD dragon breath CL 35 but they persevered and one the day . With one guy concious.
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What is best in life-

To crush the PC's

See their character sheets piled before you

And to hear the lamentations of the players

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commanderFuron · Post by **commanderFuron** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:59 pm

Valerian wrote:
I have been running a heavily house ruled C&C adventure set in GH castle.

What other house rules do you have? Does the game come to save or die a lot or have you had a work around other than the changed base save?

Valerian · Post by **Valerian** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:52 pm

I allow for all character to make a number of recovery tests per day . The number is based upon their con bonus +1 . The number of HP recieved each time is 25% of their possible max. at their level.

All casters memorize spells as per C&C . But i allow characters to change a number of spell levels = to their character level after 15 minutes of rest. This does not give more spells per day but does allow for better prep. Also the game doesn't stop at a wizard locked door.

As for save and die situations .I allow all characters a second save vs. death should they fail an insta-death save. This second save is CHA based and the CL is the current level of the character. This may still result in something bad (your armor got disintegrated) but they live.
_________________
What is best in life-

To crush the PC's

See their character sheets piled before you

And to hear the lamentations of the players

-Conan the dungeonmaster