To be honest, i am not that taken with the official rules for multi-classing in the C&C game. I feel that my house-rule for multi-classing is more flexible than the various versions i have seen to date, and allows characters to grow and develop in the classes of their choice as they wish, pretty much the same as the d20 game system:
http://chroniclesofarath.files.wordpres ... assing.pdf
Just thought i would share this with the greater gaming community.
(Druw)
True Multiclassing
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moriarty777
- Renegade Mage
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:: Starts flipping through the PHB... ::
Sorry, can't find any multi-classing rules!
As it stands there an no 'official' rules for this as they never made it into the PHB. I hear there might be some stuff dealing with it in the CKG and of course there was what Gygax offered up in Yggsburgh Vol.I book and the articles that appears in Crusader #4.
However, I applaud your efforts -- C&C is the type of game system that welcomes houserules! Thanks for sharing and welcome to the Crusade!
M
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Sorry, can't find any multi-classing rules!
As it stands there an no 'official' rules for this as they never made it into the PHB. I hear there might be some stuff dealing with it in the CKG and of course there was what Gygax offered up in Yggsburgh Vol.I book and the articles that appears in Crusader #4.
However, I applaud your efforts -- C&C is the type of game system that welcomes houserules! Thanks for sharing and welcome to the Crusade!
M
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Buttmonkey
- Greater Lore Drake
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Two points:
1. There are no official rules for multiclassing in C&C. You can find suggestions on how to multiclass in various places, including Gary's proposed rules in CZ1:Yggsburgh, but there is nothing official.
2. Your proposed system is interesting. In particular, I'd like to see how stacking BtH works out in practice. (i.e., is it imbalancing, etc.)
Edit: That villain Moriarty beat me to the punch. Jackass...
1. There are no official rules for multiclassing in C&C. You can find suggestions on how to multiclass in various places, including Gary's proposed rules in CZ1:Yggsburgh, but there is nothing official.
2. Your proposed system is interesting. In particular, I'd like to see how stacking BtH works out in practice. (i.e., is it imbalancing, etc.)
Edit: That villain Moriarty beat me to the punch. Jackass...
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.
Heh... one of the fellers who was in on the discussions and playtesting can comment more, but my understanding is there was a bit of back and forth on whether to give "official" multi- or dual- classing rules, and the decision was not to so that everyone could do their own thing. The CZ stuff gave Gary's take, I believe the Crusader was Seig's? the CKG will likely show us Davis's and/or Mac's alternate takes, and we can take different things.
I think you have an interesting setup, one that I considered. I've pretty much adapted multi-classing as in the Crusader, though I am also working on my own "sub-class" houserule as well.
Edit: Heh, it's like a buffet... take a bit of this, take a bit of that - make your plate the way you wants it!
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I think you have an interesting setup, one that I considered. I've pretty much adapted multi-classing as in the Crusader, though I am also working on my own "sub-class" houserule as well.
Edit: Heh, it's like a buffet... take a bit of this, take a bit of that - make your plate the way you wants it!
_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright
Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/
High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org
moriarty777 wrote:
:: Starts flipping through the PHB... ::
Sorry, can't find any multi-classing rules!
As it stands there an no 'official' rules for this as they never made it into the PHB. I hear there might be some stuff dealing with it in the CKG and of course there was what Gygax offered up in Yggsburgh Vol.I book and the articles that appears in Crusader #4.
However, I applaud your efforts -- C&C is the type of game system that welcomes houserules! Thanks for sharing and welcome to the Crusade!
M
Yes, sorry that was a little misleading, I took the multi-classing rules in Castle Zagyg to be the "official" rules.
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moriarty777
- Renegade Mage
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Buttmonkey wrote:
Edit: That villain Moriarty beat me to the punch. Jackass...
I've got a reputation to maintain!
M
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moriarty777
- Renegade Mage
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Druw wrote:
Yes, sorry that was a little misleading, I took the multi-classing rules in Castle Zagyg to be the "official" rules.
Hehehe... no worries. I just wanted to have a bit of fun!
M
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
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Re: True Multiclassing
Druw wrote:
To be honest, i am not that taken with the official rules for multi-classing in the C&C game.
What??! I wrote one of the articles in Crusader 4 which you are not taken with and....oh, who am I kidding...even I don't use those rules.
Seriously though, what you've come up with is pretty cool but it has the same flaw I find in most multiclass systems (including my own). Which is that it's too complicated for my tastes.
After much trial and error I finally settled on using "former professions" for each character to allow them a little flexibility (a fighter who was a wizard's apprentice in his early life might be able to cast a couple zero level spells and have some minor knowledge of magical workings, etc). And for that very rare character concept which really requires two classes I use a form of melded class very similar to those found in Crusader 4.
But what you've come up with looks pretty solid for those who like that amount of detail. Well done.
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Troll Lord Games
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Re: True Multiclassing
Jackal wrote:
What??! I wrote one of the articles in Crusader 4 which you are not taken with and....oh, who am I kidding...even I don't use those rules.
Thanks,
I must confess i do not have issue 4 of Crusader, though i do recall seeing an article in (i think) issue 5. It was part two of an article which had a selection of alternative classes, which combined two or more of the core classes to produce an alternative "multi-class" option.
It was well written, and an excellent alternative to the standard d20 stye of multi-classing, reminding me much of the various Conan supplements and how they handle multi-classing.
The only reason I did not go with it is that I wanted a system that mirrored the d20 version, for the ease of converting characters in d20 settings/adventures to C&C. Otherwise, it was an excellent article.
Druw
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csperkins1970
- Ulthal
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It seems to draw from 3rd edition (as you wrote), with a slightly different spin on how one advances. Not bad... though I prefer AD&D-style multiclassing. Here's how I handle AD&D-style multiclassing and split-classing (which I use to emulate 3rd edition multiclassing).
Multiclassed Characters
A multiclassed character improves in two classes simultaneously. His experience is divided equally between each class. The character can use the abilities of both classes at any time, with only a few restrictions. All races may multiclass. A multiclassed character uses the highest Bonus to Hit (BtH) value of his two classes. The characters hit points are the average of his two hit die rolls. Fractions are rounded down. Any constitution bonus or penalty is then applied to the characters hit points. When creating a multiclassing character, use the following guidelines:
1. Class combinations are restricted by alignment. Multiclassed barbarians are literate.
2. The character must have each classs Prime Requisite as one of his Primes.
3. Multiclassed characters use the highest the Bonus to Hit (BtH) value of their classes.
4. Multiclassed characters use the least restrictive weapon list for their classes.
5. Multiclassed characters must use the most restrictive armor list of their classes.
6. Multiclassed characters starting gold is determined using the best starting Gold of their classes.
7. Multiclassed characters with a class ability that is shared by more than one of their classes do not stack their level bonuses to that ability. Use the greater level bonus, should one class be of a higher level than the other.
After the multiclassed character is created, keep the following in mind:
1. All experience points are divided equally amongst the two classes chosen for the character.
2. Once a character acquires enough experience points to progress in level, they do so.
3. When advancing a level, use the hit die types for the classes advanced in to determine the number of hit points gained and divide the total by two. Fractions are rounded down. Apply the constitution bonus after determining the averaged hit point rolls for both classes. Should the classes advance at different times, only apply the constitution bonus once (when the first of the character's classes advances to the next level of experience).
4. At 11th level and beyond average the bonus hit points that both classes provide. If this average winds up being a fractional number, round it down at odd levels and up at even levels.
Split-Classed Character
Any single-classed character may split-class, regardless of race. You may not split-class from a single-class to a multiclass combination or vice versa. For example, you cannot start out as a fighter and then split-class to be a wizard/rogue. You must transition from one single-class to another single-class. When a character decides to split-class, he must meet specific criteria. First, he must already possess the prime requisite of their new class and be eligible to take that class (based on his background and alignment). Thus, if a fighter wished to split-class as a rogue, he must already have chosen dexterity as one of his primes. Secondly, he must reach 2nd level in one class before switching to another. Lastly, all characters may advance in a maximum of 3 different classes through split-classing.
Once a character begins training in a newly chosen class, he must halt his advancement in whatever class or classes he formerly progressed in. 1st level in the newly chosen class is not gained until the character gains additional experience points equal to those needed to achieve his current character level (the total levels acquired in all of his classes) in his new career.
Example:
A 7th level rogue (with 48,001 experience points) who takes up fighter training will not gain a fighter level must earn an additional 68,000 experience points (what it takes to reach 7th level as a fighter), for a total of 116,001 experience points, to become an 8th level character (rogue 7/fighter 1).
At this point the character is split-classed and uses the characters combined levels (his character level) to determine the number of experience points needed to advance to next level in his newly chosen class.
Character level is used to determine the characters ability check modifiers for level (except when determining his level bonus to specific class abilities) and the number of experience points needed to reach next level. His current class determines the hit die type rolled for hit points. His individual class levels still determine his level modifiers to his class abilities (though classes that share specific class abilities combine their levels when determining level bonuses for these shared class abilities). The BtH for both classes is totaled when determining the characters combat bonus to hit.
Additionally, at character level 11 and higher, the character no longer rolls hit dice but gains the bonus hit points of the class that he is currently advancing in.
Split-classed casters are still restricted with regards to the armor that they may wear and cast spells. As such, a split-classed wizard may not wear any armor while spellcasting.
Finally, a character may choose to resume advancement in a previously chosen class, but follows the procedures listed above for acquiring a new class. Once again, the character must gain enough experience points to increase their character level by one.
Example 2:
A split-classed rogue 7/fighter 2 (with 252,001 experience points) who resumes rogue training will not gain a rogue level until he earns an additional 120,000 experience points (what it takes to reach 9th level as a rogue), for a total of 372,001 experience points, to become an 10th level character (rogue 8/fighter 2).
Multiclassed Characters
A multiclassed character improves in two classes simultaneously. His experience is divided equally between each class. The character can use the abilities of both classes at any time, with only a few restrictions. All races may multiclass. A multiclassed character uses the highest Bonus to Hit (BtH) value of his two classes. The characters hit points are the average of his two hit die rolls. Fractions are rounded down. Any constitution bonus or penalty is then applied to the characters hit points. When creating a multiclassing character, use the following guidelines:
1. Class combinations are restricted by alignment. Multiclassed barbarians are literate.
2. The character must have each classs Prime Requisite as one of his Primes.
3. Multiclassed characters use the highest the Bonus to Hit (BtH) value of their classes.
4. Multiclassed characters use the least restrictive weapon list for their classes.
5. Multiclassed characters must use the most restrictive armor list of their classes.
6. Multiclassed characters starting gold is determined using the best starting Gold of their classes.
7. Multiclassed characters with a class ability that is shared by more than one of their classes do not stack their level bonuses to that ability. Use the greater level bonus, should one class be of a higher level than the other.
After the multiclassed character is created, keep the following in mind:
1. All experience points are divided equally amongst the two classes chosen for the character.
2. Once a character acquires enough experience points to progress in level, they do so.
3. When advancing a level, use the hit die types for the classes advanced in to determine the number of hit points gained and divide the total by two. Fractions are rounded down. Apply the constitution bonus after determining the averaged hit point rolls for both classes. Should the classes advance at different times, only apply the constitution bonus once (when the first of the character's classes advances to the next level of experience).
4. At 11th level and beyond average the bonus hit points that both classes provide. If this average winds up being a fractional number, round it down at odd levels and up at even levels.
Split-Classed Character
Any single-classed character may split-class, regardless of race. You may not split-class from a single-class to a multiclass combination or vice versa. For example, you cannot start out as a fighter and then split-class to be a wizard/rogue. You must transition from one single-class to another single-class. When a character decides to split-class, he must meet specific criteria. First, he must already possess the prime requisite of their new class and be eligible to take that class (based on his background and alignment). Thus, if a fighter wished to split-class as a rogue, he must already have chosen dexterity as one of his primes. Secondly, he must reach 2nd level in one class before switching to another. Lastly, all characters may advance in a maximum of 3 different classes through split-classing.
Once a character begins training in a newly chosen class, he must halt his advancement in whatever class or classes he formerly progressed in. 1st level in the newly chosen class is not gained until the character gains additional experience points equal to those needed to achieve his current character level (the total levels acquired in all of his classes) in his new career.
Example:
A 7th level rogue (with 48,001 experience points) who takes up fighter training will not gain a fighter level must earn an additional 68,000 experience points (what it takes to reach 7th level as a fighter), for a total of 116,001 experience points, to become an 8th level character (rogue 7/fighter 1).
At this point the character is split-classed and uses the characters combined levels (his character level) to determine the number of experience points needed to advance to next level in his newly chosen class.
Character level is used to determine the characters ability check modifiers for level (except when determining his level bonus to specific class abilities) and the number of experience points needed to reach next level. His current class determines the hit die type rolled for hit points. His individual class levels still determine his level modifiers to his class abilities (though classes that share specific class abilities combine their levels when determining level bonuses for these shared class abilities). The BtH for both classes is totaled when determining the characters combat bonus to hit.
Additionally, at character level 11 and higher, the character no longer rolls hit dice but gains the bonus hit points of the class that he is currently advancing in.
Split-classed casters are still restricted with regards to the armor that they may wear and cast spells. As such, a split-classed wizard may not wear any armor while spellcasting.
Finally, a character may choose to resume advancement in a previously chosen class, but follows the procedures listed above for acquiring a new class. Once again, the character must gain enough experience points to increase their character level by one.
Example 2:
A split-classed rogue 7/fighter 2 (with 252,001 experience points) who resumes rogue training will not gain a rogue level until he earns an additional 120,000 experience points (what it takes to reach 9th level as a rogue), for a total of 372,001 experience points, to become an 10th level character (rogue 8/fighter 2).
I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am... a god.
Re: True Multiclassing
Druw wrote:
Thanks,
I must confess i do not have issue 4 of Crusader, though i do recall seeing an article in (i think) issue 5. It was part two of an article which had a selection of alternative classes, which combined two or more of the core classes to produce an alternative "multi-class" option.
It was well written, and an excellent alternative to the standard d20 stye of multi-classing, reminding me much of the various Conan supplements and how they handle multi-classing.
The only reason I did not go with it is that I wanted a system that mirrored the d20 version, for the ease of converting characters in d20 settings/adventures to C&C. Otherwise, it was an excellent article.
Druw
Thanks, but I wrote the one that only appeared in issue 4.
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Troll Lord Games
Castles & Crusades Society
Re: True Multiclassing
Jackal wrote:
Thanks, but I wrote the one that only appeared in issue 4.
Fair enough, then i can honestly say that i have not see it. Crusader is not the easiest magazine to get this side of the water, which is a shame. (I live in the UK).
Druw
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Lord Dynel
- Maukling
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When the situation arises, I'm going to use the 1st edition rules for multiclassing. Since all races are more-or-less the same, I'll probably get rid of dual-classing. YMMV.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
Re: True Multiclassing
Druw wrote:
Fair enough, then i can honestly say that i have not see it. Crusader is not the easiest magazine to get this side of the water, which is a shame. (I live in the UK).
Druw
Not to worry, it wasn't anything terribly original. Besides, even I don't use those rules anymore. I found it easier to use the above mentioned background skills to create characters similar to Conan, Gray Mouser, etc. For those very few character concepts which require multiclassing I use something similar to what you saw in issue 5 (melded classes).
That takes all the hassle out of it for me and allows me to put strict limits on the number of multiclass characters without such strict limits on character concept.
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Troll Lord Games
Castles & Crusades Society