Cure Moderate Wounds???

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:10 am

Or the lack thereof. Is this just a typo?

I have the first printing, is this included in the erratta?
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:18 am

I'm guessing it goes back to previous editions of the game where your healing spell went from 1st level Cure Light Wounds to a 4th level Cure Serious wounds.

At least in C&C Cure Serious bumped up to 3rd. I'm assuming moderate is a 3e thing?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:40 am

Well some things about newer editions were just fluff and others were legit improvements.

A spell that makes clerics actually useful at appropriate leveles is one of those. A spell that moves from 1d8 to 3d8 just seems like something is obviously missing there in the middle. So I am guesssing this is something that was not included in the erratta sheets?

So according to the RAW a cleric can only cast cure light until 5th level, when everyone knows the damage dealt in the average fight goes over this. Might as well not memorize anything but cures.

My first experience running a C&C cleric convinced me that utility spells were better left ignored and just stock up on cure light wounds. With this sort of philosophy it kind of makes any other cleric spells a moot point.

The average 1st level party needs more than 1-8 hp healed per day.

Somebody please tell me it's in the 2nd or 3rd printing.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:49 am

Joe wrote:
Somebody please tell me it's in the 2nd or 3rd printing.

Nope it isn't in either.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:50 am

Joe wrote:
Well some things about newer editions were just fluff and others were legit improvements.

A spell that makes clerics actually useful at appropriate leveles is one of those. A spell that moves from 1d8 to 3d8 just seems like something is obviously missing there in the middle. So I am guesssing this is something that was not included in the erratta sheets?

So according to the RAW a cleric can only cast cure light until 5th level, when everyone knows the damage dealt in the average fight goes over this. Might as well not memorize anything but cures.

My first experience running a C&C cleric convinced me that utility spells were better left ignored and just stock up on cure light wounds. With this sort of philosophy it kind of makes any other cleric spells a moot point.

The average 1st level party needs more than 1-8 hp healed per day.

Somebody please tell me it's in the 2nd or 3rd printing.

Cure Light wounds 1d8: First level Cleric

Cure Serious wounds 3d8: Third Level Cleric

Cure Critical wounds 5d8: 5th level Cleric

Thats in the 3rd printing.

So, logically, if you want to have more cleric healing power, why not just add in a new spell at 2nd and 4th level with 2d8 and 4d8 respectively?

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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:51 am

Nope. It goes back to BD&D and 1E AD&D. 2E AD&D had a Cre moderate that healed 2d8 hps and was a 2nd level spell. Nothing saying you can't add it to the spell list of the cleric.

R-
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:56 am

Rigon wrote:
2E AD&D had a Cre moderate that healed 2d8 hps and was a 2nd level spell.

Which book?

I still play 2nd Edition and don't recall a moderate at all.

You've boggled me!

voynich · Post by **voynich** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:13 am

cure moderate wounds shows up in player's option: spells and magic, so late 2nd edition. that is according to priest's spell compendium which lists original source along with its effects, so one could logically assume it did not show in any version of dungeons and dragons prior to the aforementioned supplement.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:19 am

Ahah! Thanks, that explains why I'm unfamiliar with it then.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:25 am

Quote:
So, logically, if you want to have more cleric healing power, why not just add in a new spell at 2nd and 4th level with 2d8 and 4d8 respectively?

I would if I was CK, but alas I will have to humble myself before the great genius and delusions of grandeur CK of mine and ask that he rule on this.
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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:13 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Which book?

I still play 2nd Edition and don't recall a moderate at all.

You've boggled me!

I could have sworn that it was in the PHB, but after looking I couldn't find it, so I must have been mistaken (I never got the PO books).

R-
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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:17 am

Joe wrote:
I would if I was CK, but alas I will have to humble myself before the great genius and delusions of grandeur CK of mine and ask that he rule on this.

Well, you could always have your cleric invent/study/create/divine the spell and add it to the existing spell list that way.

Also you could talk to your CK and see if he'll allow your cleric to spontaneously cast cures by swapping out another spell of equal level. This allows the cleric to select versitile spells, but maintains the cleric ability to cure the party when needed.

R-
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:37 am

Spells? Clerical stuff were prayers! Spells were for magic abusers...err...wizwords...yeah...dem spell fellers.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:57 am

My cleric always used up all of his spell slots praying for Protection from Law. He'd cast it on himself and then he'd run around town stealing everything he could get his hands on. When the guards came, their spell resistance must've been crazy high because they'd always catch me.

Stupid guards.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:08 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
My cleric always used up all of his spell slots praying for Protection from Law. He'd cast it on himself and then he'd run around town stealing everything he could get his hands on. When the guards came, their spell resistance must've been crazy high because they'd always catch me.

Stupid guards.

You must have forgot the 25% of the take prayer symbol (a bag of gold pieces)
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:10 am

Joe wrote:
I would if I was CK, but alas I will have to humble myself before the great genius and delusions of grandeur CK of mine and ask that he rule on this.

Tell your CK its an official house rule to add in a cure moderate at second level. I have spoken, it is so.

Besides, it only makes sense if you ultimately want the players PC's to survive. To deny such healing just makes it that much more of a challenge to keep them alive. So it helps the CK avoid unwanted character deaths or TPK's.

Thats the way I look at it anyways.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:10 am

We don't do spell components in that game.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:17 am

Joe wrote:
I would if I was CK, but alas I will have to humble myself before the great genius and delusions of grandeur CK of mine and ask that he rule on this.

It never hurts to ask, Joe. The worst he can say is no. This is one of those cases where I'm not sure if it was better to follow 3.x/d20 or not. It was one of the things that made me smile though, seeing the throwback way they handled it. I haven't played a cleric yet, so that's probably the only was I'd know if it will be an issue.

Either way, good luck asking your CK!

Jackal · Post by **Jackal** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:50 am

On the other hand, I've been running a game of C&C pretty much non-stop since before the books were published and our clerics always do just fine. As a CK, I like that each spell level can't be filled up with healing. Makes the clerics actually look at something else besides how many hit points they can replenish in a single day.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:52 am

Yeah, I've never used a Cure Moderate spell in my games (C&C or other) and haven't had any issues with party survivability or cleric suckiness.

mordrene · Post by **mordrene** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:30 pm

for those of you that thing clerics need more healing, doesnt it cost 50 gp to make a scroll?

Also check out the pathfinder rpg rules at paizo for turning. Instaed of save and leave a turn doea a burst of positive energy that damages undead but cures living things.

just some thoughts.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:09 pm

For my games I'm stealing the 3e rule that allows the Cleric to turn any spell into a Cure spell of the appropriate or lower level. That way they will take other useful spells and not have to worry about having healing available (at least until they're agonizing over which spell to drop for it )...

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:13 pm

Luther wrote:
That way they will take other useful spells

The best defense is a good offense.

A first level cleric loaded down with Sound Burst, rocks the socks off of mobs of goblins and kobolds. Who needs healing when ya aint gettin' hit.

dachda · Post by **dachda** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:27 pm

Luther wrote:

Quote:
For my games I'm stealing the 3e rule that allows the Cleric to turn any spell into a Cure spell of the appropriate or lower level. That way they will take other useful spells and not have to worry about having healing available (at least until they're agonizing over which spell to drop for it Twisted Evil )...

I'm doing a variant of that where I require the cleric to have at least one cure spell memorized before he is allowed to convert a non-cure spell into a cure spell. That way I figure I'm getting the parts of both concepts, that clerics heal, and that clerics have some pretty cool utility/attack spells.

DangerDwarf wrote:

Quote:
A first level cleric loaded down with Sound Burst, rocks the socks off of mobs of goblins and kobolds. Who needs healing when ya aint gettin' hit.

Not just goblins and kobolds. My party had a bad experience with the Bag O' bones in the Shadows of Halfling Hall, the whole party ended up unconscious with negative HPs, and the cleric, the last one standing with 2 HPs remembered he had memorized sound burst, won initiative that round and rolled max damage. Saved the day.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:31 pm

Heh, I remember my first game where the player realized the awesomeness of OSund Burst, and it was before I realized it. A small horde of kobolds was charging the party, in a fairly tight group. He hit 'em with SOund Burst and I was stunned a moment:

"A 1st level AoE?"

Half the kobolds died in that single spell. Definitely had to rethink critter tactics then.

voynich · Post by **voynich** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:09 pm

remember that sound burst can easily affect the party members, so it is not as all-useful as it might seem. i recall an episode in a game i witnessed where the party were ambushed by some nasty greenskins, and the cleric had failed to be surprised, and cast sound burst on his action. it took out the enemy, and also nearly killed the fighter (left him with -3 HP) and put everyone else to unconscious, and then, the others, who had not rushed forward, finished the entire party off. one spell sealed their victory, and they didn't even use it.

but, i think that dm wanted to off the party.
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Jackal · Post by **Jackal** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:17 am

voynich wrote:
remember that sound burst can easily affect the party members, so it is not as all-useful as it might seem. i recall an episode in a game i witnessed where the party were ambushed by some nasty greenskins, and the cleric had failed to be surprised, and cast sound burst on his action. it took out the enemy, and also nearly killed the fighter (left him with -3 HP) and put everyone else to unconscious, and then, the others, who had not rushed forward, finished the entire party off. one spell sealed their victory, and they didn't even use it.

but, i think that dm wanted to off the party.

With the heavy armor a cleric can wear, he has little chance of being hit in the one round it would take the rest of the party to clear out while he blows the horde away.

In your example, it sounds like the cleric should have been flogged for not warning the rest of the party.
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voynich · Post by **voynich** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:28 pm

sound burst was his alarm. he didn't expect to roll high on the damage, but something more mediocre, like a 3 or 4 (i assume he assumed the bad guys would die, or be nearly dead after, and the party just slightly injured; or, he forgot it hit everyone in range) and that the party had higher HP totals than they did (they did not tell each other how many they had, as the dm forbade such "metagaming.") also, the cleric did not have heavy armor, since he was only level one and had to buy weapons, spell components, a holy symbol, and so on and so forth; i believe he had scale armor, which is pretty good, but not guarantee of not being hit by little goblin boogers.

i just found it a funny misuse of the spell that people have been saying is very powerful. sure, it is, when used properly by a caster who doesn't blow you up with it.
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Jackal · Post by **Jackal** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:16 am

voynich wrote:
i just found it a funny misuse of the spell that people have been saying is very powerful. sure, it is, when used properly by a caster who doesn't blow you up with it.

It's been my experience that the more powerful the spell, the more a goof up costs ya.
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ThrorII · Post by **ThrorII** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:07 am

One thing I don't understand.....

Why have Cure Critical Wounds or Cure Serious Wounds, if (according to page 120 of the PHB) magical healing only brings you back up to 0 hp, and you must heal the rest naturally (1 hp per day of total rest). Since RAW states that at -10 you are dead, you can only be magically healed for 9hp at any time (bringing you from -9 to 0 hp).

It seems that there were two different thought processes going on during game design, and both made it to the finished book.