Surprise

[Philotomy Jurament]

After playing for a bit, I think I'm going to house-rule surprise. I find the use of the Wis check to be one of those things that sounds good when you read it, but turns out kind of wonky, in play.

Here's my thinking:

In old versions of D&D, the base chance of surprise was 30-33%, depending on the edition. Level didn't affect surprise, nor did monster hit dice. Certain classes or races had better chances, and situational modifiers could help.

In C&C, the base chance of surprise is 55% (prime) or 85% (secondary). An 18 Wis would make those numbers 40% (prime) or 70% (secondary). Modifying by level helps make this more reasonable at low levels, but starts skewing things the opposite way as levels increase. For example a 9th level cleric with a 16 Wis would need to roll a 1 to avoid surprise (e.g. a 0% base chance of surprise). Modifying the surprise roll by monster HD could offset some of that, but I don't really like that, either, because HD doesn't really relate to stealth.

Anyway, the Wis check system could probably be tweaked, but I don't like some of the side-effects that are built-in (e.g. effects of level). I also find it odd that the most effective lookout for most parties would be the cleric (generally high Wis and prime).

Rather than using the SIEGE engine mechanic for surprise, I'm thinking of using a different approach, but haven't decided exactly what, yet. I'm leaning towards a d20 or d% for surprise, with a base chance of 30%. Rangers and Rogues would start out with a better base chance (e.g. 15%). Other circumstantial modifers would still apply, but level and monster HD would not (as in AD&D or Classic D&D). I don't think I'll apply a Wis bonus, but having Wis prime might give a +1 or +5% bonus. Maybe.

Just kicking this around, at present. Has anyone else house-ruled surprise? What do you guys think?

[moriarty777]

I hadn't really thought about it (till now)... the few sessions that I've had I've seen the player's play very cautiously.

With Listen being a Wisdom based skill... I think it might be more of knowing what to listen for and how to react to what... The 'how to react' is definately more 'experiential' which is why someone who is a thief could get better with it in time.

As for Clerics starting off the way they do (because of Primes, etc), well I may argue that Clerics are more open to their surroundings in terms of communing with the divine in order to experience how the divine manifests itself...

Just a few thoughts... probably won't really help you though.

Moriarty the Red
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[Philotomy Jurament]

moriarty777 wrote:
I hadn't really thought about it (till now)... the few sessions that I've had I've seen the player's play very cautiously.

Just for the record, in some cases I wouldn't even bother with a surprise roll. I'm a big proponent of using common sense and only rolling when it's called for. However, when I do want to roll for surprise, a Wis check doesn't seem to be the best choice, IMO.

Quote:
With Listen being a Wisdom based skill... I think it might be more of knowing what to listen for and how to react to what... The 'how to react' is definately more 'experiential' which is why someone who is a thief could get better with it in time.

I tend to see the thief's listen/hear noise ability as separate from the surprise rules. A thief can use his listen ability and add his level, since that's a class ability. But I don't consider that an "always on" ability -- the thief needs to tell me he's concentrating and using his listen ability.

An example of how I use the thief's listen ability: if a monster was sneaking up on a camp where a thief was using his listen ability, I'd roll the listen check, first. If the thief hears something with his ability, the need for a surprise check would be negated. If the thief fails his listen check, then I'd roll for surprise, as normal (surprise incorporating vision, luck, and "sixth sense" in addition to hearing).

This is similar to how I run moving silently. If the thief is sneaking up behind someone and makes his check, he moves absolutely silently and there is zero chance that they will hear him -- depending on the circumstances, I'd either rule that he auto surprises (usually this), or that he gets a big bonus to surprise. If he fails his check, he wasn't completely silent, but they still might not notice -- a standard surprise check would apply.

Quote:
As for Clerics starting off the way they do (because of Primes, etc), well I may argue that Clerics are more open to their surroundings in terms of communing with the divine in order to experience how the divine manifests itself...

Yeah, I thought about that. It doesn't sit well with me, though. I think thief and ranger archetypes should be the ones that are hard to get the drop on.

[moriarty777]

Yes... common sense is always good.
With your example regarding the thief... I do believe that, at least a good part of it is concentrating his ability to filter out whatever and possibly zone in ... if there is something to zone in on. I don't necessarily consider it always on but if the thief happens to be specifically on watch while the rest of the party is resting, I'm assuming he's using his class ability. Once again, it's that common sense.

The only exception I'd consider is the elf... (or Gnome) who have it as a natural ability. But for those, I would do a hidden roll (without any level modification if they also have it as a class ability as they are only passively listening).

In this game thus far, I haven't had to do that yet... but I think the theory is sound. The way you seem to be running it though does make sense and is consistant. With of course the original problem you mentioned.
Moriarty the Red
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[babbage]

How about - if your character has any listen ability, then you can treat Wisdom as a prime when rolling for surprise, even if it isn't?

[Philotomy Jurament]

moriarty777 wrote:
I don't necessarily consider [Listen ability to be] always on but if the thief happens to be specifically on watch while the rest of the party is resting, I'm assuming he's using his class ability. Once again, it's that common sense.

Yes, I agree.

In coming up with the following, I used these principles:

- the CK should use common sense, first.

- some class or race abilities come into play second (e.g. the thief's Listen ability, the half-orc's sense of smell, etc).

- if a surprise check is still required, level is not a factor

- some classes are harder to surprise based on their archetype

- some races have abilities that impact the chance of surprise

- the surprise check includes training (e.g. class/archetype), multiple senses (e.g. hearing, sight, smell, etc.), luck/fate, and "sixth sense." While similar to a skill or ability check, it is somewhat more abstract.

Because of the last principle, I chose a d% rather than a d20, to emphasize the difference. Also, I thought d% would make it easier to convert some D&D or AD&D monsters that have odd chances of surprise like 1 in 8, et cetera. With all that in mind, how does this sound:

Quote:
The check for surprise includes detection based on all the senses, luck, and "sixth sense." Note that common sense should be used to determine whether a surprise roll is even necessary; in many cases it will be obvious that one side or the other cannot be surprised, or will be automatically surprised. When there is some question and a check is necessary, surprise is a d% roll, with a base 30% chance of surprise. This base chance of surprise is modified as follows:

Elves: Elves possess enhanced vision and hearing, and receive a 5% bonus on their surprise roll if those factors are applicable.

Gnomes: Gnomes possess enhanced hearning and receive a 5% bonus on their surprise roll if those factors are applicable.

Half-Elves: Half-Elves possess enhanced vision and hearing, and receive a 5% bonus on their surprise roll if those factors are applicable.

Half-Orcs: Half-Orcs possess an enhanced sense of smell and receive a 5% bonus on their surprise roll if this factor is applicable. If the other party emits a strong odor, this bonus is doubled to 10%.

Rangers: Rangers operating in the wilderness receive a 15% bonus on their surprise roll.

Rogues: Rogues receive a 10% bonus on their surprise roll.

The bonuses stack, so an Elven ranger has a 20% bonus on his surprise roll. The CK may apply other circumstantial modifiers as necessary. Normally, the individual with the most favorable chance makes a single roll for the entire group. However, in some cases the CK may call for individual surprise rolls.

[serleran]

There are two ways to deal with surprise: passive and active. Passive means it just happens, like when two parties are wandering down a dark hall and bump into each other; active is when someone is trying to sneak up on you.

There are two ways to avoid being surprised: passive and active. Passive is when you're just sitting there and something jumps out and says "boo!" and active is when you're checking the area, ensuring no traps and that the alcoves contain nothing, and generally being watchful.

Active methods always involve rolls of the one performing the action -- so, if Bubba the Thief is sneaking up on Clarence the Mildly Not-Intelligent, Bubba gets to roll to see if he succeeds; if Clarence was paying special attention for such things, he would get to check to see if he notices Bubba. In the case of "opposed" active checks, since there are no rules for them currently (and technically all checks are "opposed") the PC gets the advantage of getting the check. That means, when the modifier would have applied to the opposite side, it still does -- the formula for all checks is always d20 + attribute bonus + level / HD + modifiers >= 12/18 + difficulty + modifiers: so, if Clarence was the PC, any modifiers Bubba might get are added to the side with the difficulty. You can, of course, have both sides roll.

Passive methods generally don't require a roll, unless the Castle Keeper stipulates a check is in order (as in the above example of two parties bumping into each other) but the resolution is always the same -- opposing side modifiers apply against your check (increases the difficulty) and your modifiers (such as moving too quickly) apply to theirs.

Here, a little more clarity -- "He is deadly silent and unless someone is actively searching down the well he gains a +4 on his surprise roll."

This means this guy will always surprise, unless someone specifically tries to find him before he is able to do so, and then, the odds are 4 points more difficult. "His roll" in this case does not mean a roll the individual makes, but one made against him.

"So someone waiting in ambush is Camouflaged/Concealed, is that +5 mod added to the CB of check made by those they are ambushing/hiding from? or does it mean that someone that is Camouflaged/Concealed is less likely to be surprised themselves?"

Ambushing / concealment makes it easier to be found, and less likely to be able to effectively surprise; it has no impact on your own ability to be surprised in return.

So, basically, it boils down to the situation.
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