Death in your games

[Treebore]

Lord Dynel wrote:
I never put it in that perspective before, Tree. I can begin to see where you're coming from, especially when it comes to dealing with younger, "fresher," players. My son is, hopefully, going to be starting on playing soon, and he would probably react in a similar fashion.

But reading this, and the rest of your post, you have some excellent points. I think some - including me still, to a point - are focused more on the character instead of the player. I'm seeing the other side of the coin and you're right, a player may not exhibit he disappointment but that doesn't mean it's not there. While I think there should be some repercussions to dying (though at this juncture I'm not sure what), it has to be done in a fashion not to upset the player. You have chosen to sacrifice any (or most) negative consequences for dying in hope of keeping player spirits high. There's certainly nothing wrong with that decision. I guess I still hold on to the fear that, should I follow a similar route, my kindness would be taken advantage of. I'm not saying players would purposely die to take advantage of the lack of penalty associated with such action, it's just that they wouldn't fear it so much - which again, I believe is where a lot of the hang-ups in this discussion take place.

Yep, thats it exactly, just because players may keep a "stiff upper lip", etc... does not mean the loss does not bother them. That you can tell from how they play. If they are reckless, have an "I don't care" attitude then I'll penalize them, because they don't care.

However, if they are careful, play smart, develop their character, then I know they have a connection to their PC, so I don't need to add insult to injury when the character dies. They didn't do anything to make it die. It will be due to bad luck, not bad playing, when that PC dies.

I tell my players, you play well, and die, I won't penalize you further. You do something foolish, careless, and ignore my warnings, you'll lose Con, or XP, or both. Whatever I decide, because I am, for all intents and purposes, the god who is granting your resurrection. If I am pleased I'll show mercy and not add to your punishment, displease me and you'll know my deific wrath.

It's not weakness if you do what you say. Its strength.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[anonymous]

Jonathan of White Haven wrote:
Another DM didn't like Elves (though they were his favorite race to run as a player--go fig) and ruled that in his campaign, Elves couldn't be resurrected because they didn't have souls. (This made little sense to the players--why would Elves not have souls, but Dwarves, Halflings, Half-Orcs, and even Half-Elves get the nod?)

That was actually pretty much by the book 1st edition AD&D. Raise Dead doesn't work on elves because, they explain somewhere, that elves have spirits and not souls.

[DangerDwarf]

Yeah, raise Dead didn't work on elves in 2nd Edition either.

[Jonathan of White Haven]

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
That was actually pretty much by the book 1st edition AD&D. Raise Dead doesn't work on elves because, they explain somewhere, that elves have spirits and not souls.

This is probably true, but I'm not going to go try and find the reference. He didn't allow the use of Resurrection on Elves, either. The minimum requirement was a Limited Wish if you wanted to bring one back from the dead.

And no, he wasn't running AD&D BtB. He houseruled quite a bit. Most of the GMs I played under did.
_________________
"You don't understand, Beaufingle", said Lungwort cryptically. "You ARE dinner." -- M.M. Moamrath

[Traveller]

I just read this thread and I want to touch on the secondary topic of raising dead and resurrection. Someone mentioned the -1 CON penalty and I had to take a look at the resurrection spell. I read it, then looked in the rest of the book. I can't believe I missed this in my house rules, but I have to say that if a raise dead or resurrection comes into play in my games, the -1 CON penalty is the least of the PC's worries.

In comparing AD&D, Castles & Crusades, and d20 Fantasy, d20 Fantasy is the friendliest system to the characters, followed by Castles & Crusades, with AD&D the least character friendly system. In d20 Fantasy, resurrection costs a level, which isn't a big deal. No permanent effect to the character in that system. Castles & Crusades swipes a point of CON permanently. This is a good thing in that there is a tangible, permanent effect upon the character. The loss of CON is a bad thing though in that it trivializes the strain on a body in being resurrected in the first place. In that regard, AD&D wins hands down with its resurrection survival roll, something that the other two systems do not have. Unfortunately for Castles & Crusades, I believe that while the loss of CON is a worthwhile middle road between the extremes of d20 Fantasy and AD&D, it doesn't really serve to highlight the true peril in dying in the first place. So, it looks as if I'll be applying the following system shock rule to raise dead and resurrection to reflect that true peril.
System shock: Upon casting raise dead or resurrection, the target character's player rolls an unmodified 1d20. If the result is equal to or less than the character's current constitution score the character is revived but loses 1 point of constitution permanently as noted in the spell descriptions for raise dead and resurrection. Failure of the roll results in permanent death, which not even a wish can circumvent. If the character's constitution falls to 0 as a result, the character is irrevocably dead.
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

[Lord Dynel]

Traveller wrote:
System shock: Upon casting raise dead or resurrection, the target character's player rolls an unmodified 1d20. If the result is equal to or less than the character's current constitution score the character is revived but loses 1 point of constitution permanently as noted in the spell descriptions for raise dead and resurrection. Failure of the roll results in permanent death, which not even a wish can circumvent. If the character's constitution falls to 0 as a result, the character is irrevocably dead.

Yes, we definitely need System Shock in C&C!
That would work pretty well. For those that don't like the roll-or-die, you can always change it to rolling equal to or under Con has no side efects, and a failed roll (over Con) would result in a loss of Con. I might have to use some System Shock...good idea, Traveller!

[Lord Dynel]

Treebore wrote:
Yep, thats it exactly, just because players may keep a "stiff upper lip", etc... does not mean the loss does not bother them. That you can tell from how they play. If they are reckless, have an "I don't care" attitude then I'll penalize them, because they don't care.

However, if they are careful, play smart, develop their character, then I know they have a connection to their PC, so I don't need to add insult to injury when the character dies. They didn't do anything to make it die. It will be due to bad luck, not bad playing, when that PC dies.

I tell my players, you play well, and die, I won't penalize you further. You do something foolish, careless, and ignore my warnings, you'll lose Con, or XP, or both. Whatever I decide, because I am, for all intents and purposes, the god who is granting your resurrection. If I am pleased I'll show mercy and not add to your punishment, displease me and you'll know my deific wrath.

It's not weakness if you do what you say. Its strength.

Makes good sense, sir. I now see why you do it the way you do.

[Traveller]

Lord Dynel wrote:
Yes, we definitely need System Shock in C&C!
That would work pretty well. For those that don't like the roll-or-die, you can always change it to rolling equal to or under Con has no side efects, and a failed roll (over Con) would result in a loss of Con. I might have to use some System Shock...good idea, Traveller!

*takes a bow*

Brought to you from the home of d20 Hit Dice dragons.
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

[Julian Grimm]

While I do like the System Shock idea, I still lean to dead is dead in my games. I chalk it up to influence of some novels I read years ago that limited magic to not raising the dead for various reasons. It was one thing that just stuck with me.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

[Keolander]

Peronally, the Hackmaster player group charter isn't a bad idea. I also agree with Treebore that penalizing the player for bad luck should not be a part of the game. This is especially true if the character died due to the stupidity of another player (say like someone decided to be a prankster and shove a PC into the Devil Mouth with the Sphere of Annhilation in it from The Tomb of Horrors for no good reason). Ive had other players that have gotten my PCs severely injured in home games as well as killed in Convention games due to their (not my) stupidity.
_________________
Lord Lamorek Steelguard, Baron of Calx Mons Montis - The Castles & Crusades Society