Seige Engine Examples

[PeelSeel2]

mudpyr8 wrote:

If someone were to publish, under OGL which they certainly could, a set of objective guidelines to task resolution in C&C it wouldn't impact your game one bit. But for those players seeking a simpler set of rules and a great gaming experience in C&C such guidelines might make that even better. Perhaps it will solve some disputes between the players or give the CK a few more ideas on how to handle situations he knows nothing about, and for young gamemasters that is a very important tool.

I think that is a GREAT idea and we can handle it like we did the 23 reasons to play C&C. I will post some tonight.
_________________
Labor to keep alive in your breast that little spark of celestial fire called conscience.

-George Washington

[Inkpot]

This would be a godsend for me!!

Ink
_________________
Check out Inkpot's C&C Downloads: http://www.cncplayer.net/inkpot/index.htm

C&C: Blissfully devoid of gestalt neko-hin rogue/fighter/mages!!

[Scurvy_Platypus]

PeelSeel2 wrote:
I think that is a GREAT idea and we can handle it like we did the 23 reasons to play C&C. I will post some tonight.

Being so new to the forums, I hate to be a wet blanket, but...

Someone putting out their houserules which contain the kind of modifiers/ task resolution guidelines they follow, is a nifty enough idea. People can look around and play with things and so forth.

But I'm also kinda leery of it becoming some sort of defacto "standard". Yeah, I realize that there are people out there that want some sort of "objective" rules/guidelines and that those people who don't want to use 'em don't have to. Afterall, as has been pointed out before, most rulebooks contain a throwaway line about "if these rules don't work, discard 'em!". It also doesn't stop people from behaving as if it's _the_ way to do it, since it's been published.

For example, there were some pretty interesting examples of Multi/Dual Classing floating around. And a lot of calls for an "official" version. Once Castle Zagyg came out, a fair number of people seemed to assume that everyone was now going to be using those rules and that the issue was a done deal. It never seemed to occur to these folks that other people might not be able to afford to rush out and buy a setting book just to get some "official" rules, or that they wouldn't be interested in doing so. I really appreciate the Trolls putting the rules out like they did in pdf form.

I'm all in favor of people showing off their houserules and the kind of guidelines they use and all that. I just kinda worry about any "standard" sort of anything being tacked on. Right now, C&C is fresh and new and people are playing around doing cool things with it. But the more attempts that are made to "standardize" things, the less interesting it becomes to play the game. The Fudge game system for example, seems to have stagnated. There were pretty cool ideas way back when, but the community started standardizing things, and now it's pretty dogmatic in a number of respects.

RPGA is another example of standardized play. On a number of levels, the idea seems sound, that is people being able to play their character and know exactly what rules are in play for _any_ RPGA game. Some people really love it, personally it grates on me. But it was never a problem for me, except when people insisted that the RPGA way was the _right_ way to play.

Part of "old-school" was making stuff up as you went. Sometimes things worked out awesome, and sometimes you had to go back to the drawing board. But it was all good, and you generall had the room to be flexible like that. As time passed, people wanted to know the "right way" to do things, and wanted standardization. So we got ever thicker rule books, and more of them. And it's evolved into what we call 3.5 nowadays. All the designers I've seen have said how 90% of the time, a group is only going to use something like 15% of the rules; everything else is there as an option in case the DM needs/wants it.

I like the way things are right now. Sure there's some chaos and confusion, and in play some houserule or another might not work out well. I think it's a bonus. People playing rpgs are actively being encouraged to get their hands dirty, and make the game theirs once again. While I don't always agree with some of the answers/reasons Serleran gives for example, I really like that his answers tend to be framed in terms of how it's going to affect the game system. Not whether it's "right" or "wrong".

[Fiffergrund]

First, Scurvy, great name, and welcome to the forums/Crusade.
Second, I think your response has a lot of merit. While I love seeing the things people are doing with the game, I have a lot of hesitance toward seeing "official" things also, for the same reasons.

Thanks for posting them.

Fiff
_________________
Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[Melkor]

While I do think some examples of how the SEIGE engine mechanic can be utilized in the game (including modifiers as discussed in the "SEIGE Engine Analysis thread ", I would like the Trolls to include a section of those options/ examples in the Castle Keepers Guide -

Since there are so many different ways people play C&C, I think Emryys had the right idea in the other thread when he stated:
"Put a disclaimer at the begining stating these are mearly examples/guidlines and are not hard and fast rules..."

Being in the CKG, where apparently, a lot of options and optional rules will be presented, wouldn't make the Castle Keeper fell as if he absolutely HAD to implement the rules for modifiers (discussed in the other thread), but it would give new Castle Keepers some idea of how to change the game to better suit how they want to play.

[PeelSeel2]

Appreciate the input. I think you missed the base on what it is supposed to be. In no way is it 'official' or meant to be. I envision it being a document of of different ways different CK's have handled situations using the seige engine. I am looking for specific examples, whether according to canon or according to house rules. In this way, it gives a new CK a great idea of uses of the seige engine, and ways current CK's (new and experienced) are altering the system to fit their own needs. If you do not want to participate, don't. If you do not want to use or read, don't.
_________________
Labor to keep alive in your breast that little spark of celestial fire called conscience.

-George Washington

[mudpyr8]

Great to hear. I look forward to seeing them.

The rule of thumb I see is that the core CL adding to 12/18 to determine CC is solid. Disarming a trap set by a 3 HD monster? CL 3. Good.

The Sit Mods, following the guidelines for Combat Sit Mods should also follow the standard deviation of the dice. That means that every +5 is an order of significance easier/harder. Another way to think about it, is that something that "doubles your chances", like a rope or a lever, is going to be worth a +5 or so. Using two such sit mods would certainly stack if proper storytelling supported it, and those mods might be even greater if used together (greater than their individual sums).

Common sense prevails as well. Climbing a rope up a shaft without being able to touch the walls is really no bonus at all - the rope is an enabler. But being able to brace your feet against the wall makes things a lot easier, at least +5. If the wall was rough and had ample footholds that should be part of the CL assessment.

Some discussion about prime selection coming into play - such as long climbs being more about endurance. Long climbs might requrie both DEX and CON primes and if you only have 1 the base CC is 15 (halfway between 12 and 18).

Thanks.
_________________
Legendsmiths presents: Narosia * Sea of Tears, a complete fantasy setting for HERO System

[serleran]

I don't know how the SIEGE Engine works. Can someone explain it to me?

[Omote]

Frankly, I;m not sure why we even need examples of SIEGE. Not that this thread couldn't give said examples, but what for? What is so hard to understand about it? I've read the entire analysis thread, and to be honest there is too much analyzing IMO. The SIEGE mechanic is not that hard to understand, and seems pretty straight forward on how to utilize in game.

But as has been mentioned many times in various threads, i would like to see a section devoted to this very topic in the CKG.

....................................Omote

FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Melkor]

serleran wrote:
I don't know how the SIEGE Engine works. Can someone explain it to me?

Roll a D20...add some numbers and stuff (you should probably look at your character sheet for these)....then try to beat some other numbers that the CK keeps hidden.

If he says you've beat them. Your action is success.

Hope that clears it up for you Serleran.

[PeelSeel2]

I understand where some of you think it is entirely unnecessary. Most of us on these boards are well experienced individuals. However, their are also new CK's and Ck's trying to convert from 3.x who could use our wisdom. If you don't want to give it, do not feel it is neccessary, or even feel it is waste of time, feel that way. Please keep this thread for those who want to share examples and we can start another thread on why it is such an unnecessary thread.
_________________
Labor to keep alive in your breast that little spark of celestial fire called conscience.

-George Washington

[serleran]

Naw, I'll help. I was just trying to be funny....

What kinds of examples do you want? There are thousands of things the SIEGE Engine can resolve.

[angelius]

A ton more that can be applied to the SIEGE....
Like I allow a rope tying check (WIS) to give a +2 circumstance to climb. (I roll this behind my screen) If you fail, well you just made it harder for yourself....

I'm not sure that a document can encompass all these little quirks that CKs might throw in...But I'll contribute my weird and strange "on the fly", totally unofficial use of the SIEGE engine :p
_________________
Big Iron Vault Your friendly neighbourhood gaming magazine. Check out our new webcomic, The Heindrich Project!

[Inkpot]

I'm with ya, Peel! I can't wait to see these examples!

Ink
_________________
Check out Inkpot's C&C Downloads: http://www.cncplayer.net/inkpot/index.htm

C&C: Blissfully devoid of gestalt neko-hin rogue/fighter/mages!!

[Melkor]

I'll start with an example from the Analysis thread:
The SEIGE Engine mechanic as it is currently presented in the book reads as follows:


D20 + Character Level (if applicable) +/- Attribute Modifier (if applicable) => than Challenge Base (12/18) + Challenge Level (+1 to +20 or more)
Castle Keepers can use this formula to add some variation to the SEIGE Engine as written:
D20 + Character Level (if applicable) +/- Attribute Modifier (if applicable) + Other modifiers* => than Challenge Base (12/18) + Challenge Level (+1 to +20 or more)

*"Other modifiers" would include any bonus or penalty that would affect the character's ability to acheive the task as opposed to modifying the raw difficulty of the task (i.e. - Magic Gloves of Climbing +4, A knotted rope to assist in the climb +2, etc).

[PeelSeel2]

Now your into the spirit Melkor!

When first converting my players and myself over from 3.5E to C&C, we always wanted to make the move silently/hide rolls, and opposed listen/spot rolls. We were into figuring out all the modifiers and using 3.5E as a crutch in these instances, which got into roll playing, and dragged the game out. We really didn't want to rely on the seige engine initially. Then we started to....

From the seige engine we use the straight 12/18 but my CL modifiers will run from -20 to +20, more or less. I use a natural 1 has a potential of failing, and a 20 is open-ended. I do not like opposed rolls. Either the character has a straight up chance of failure or success at a given task. A 5th Level thief sneaking up on a 12th level NPC thief is, in my book as a CK, nigh impossible. But if the player wanted to I would give him 12/18 + 18 cl for a total of either 30+ or 36+ CC. Which, in my campaign, is still possible if they roll open-ended.

In running Keep on the Borderlands, the characters located a bandit camp. The bandits are actually a military scouting unit, they are highly alert, and know how to hide themselves to not be observed. It was by chance that the thief observed the reflection of the spyglass from a distance in the first place. Next , they needed to investigate and find out exactly where they where at without being found out themselves. They quickly ruled out anyone but the thief searching for the camp. He drank apotion of invisibility and started scouting. It was only a matter of time before he found the camp, so then the question became, what are the chances of highly trained 1st-3rd level individuals noticing or spotting a 3rd level Halfling thief sneaking thorugh a forest invisible? Slim to none at all. So the halfling ability not f*** things up is 12 (dex) -20 cl for a -8 to -2 CC. He rolls a 1. So what happens?! He spots the bandit camp and decides to 'go in closer for more intel'. Two guards are talking when suddenly one looks in his direction with an odd expression. "Hey Charlie, watch this!" he says to his fellow guard, and I tell the PC to roll initiative. The player gets it, and I ask him what he does. He says he does nothing except stays still. I was trying to excite him into action. The guard walks towards him casually and stands about 2 foot infront of the players position. Roll initiative again, player gets it, does nothing. The guard wipes out his member and starts pissing on/near the unseen halfling all the while looking back at the other guard saying "Here is the drink I said I would get you!!" It was a potential failure his hide/move silently roll. That player could have decided the jig was up because he rolled so poorly and made the situation turn ugly quick. Unfortunatly, he keep his cool and just got pissed on.....
_________________
Labor to keep alive in your breast that little spark of celestial fire called conscience.

-George Washington

[mudpyr8]

I'm not sure that is the best example for new and/or young players to the game, but it is certainly entertaining. Great way to ride out a failure, without at doubt.
_________________
Legendsmiths presents: Narosia * Sea of Tears, a complete fantasy setting for HERO System

[PeelSeel2]

Situation:

Crossing a 20' foot pit 20' feet deep with spikes at the bottom. Their is not a real chance of an encounter right now, as the party has wiped out this area of the dungeon. Formerly, thier was a good rope bridge across, but now all trace of it is gone, and the settings have been filled in. Odd. So in the parties judgement, they can take their time crossing and making another crude rope bridge. The group of characters, a Rogue, Fighter, Magic User, and Cleric.

3.5E:

The Rogue has, balancing, and rope use. He wants to swing a rope across the pit with a grappling hook and secure it into the floor or a sconce on the other side to allow his crossing. Before crossing, he secures another rope on his side so once on the other side he can have two ropes secured across. Then, taking wood from a couple of doors earlier, they can make a very crude rope bridge. Hopefully they can cross safetly and have a faster egress route when coming back. The DM calls for a rope use. They figure out the DC, and the Rogue attempts the action. It fails twice with a DC of 15 in securing it to the other side. The rogue decides to take 10. With his bonus, this succeds. Ok they have the rope across and they secure it on their side with climbing gear from their climbing kit. Next, It calls for balancing as the thief needs to cross the rope with the other rope in hand. Figuring out the DC it comes to an 18. He barely makes it across. Once on the other side, he needs to either make a climb check for secureing the ropes using his climbing kit or rope use, whatever the DM would decide. Then putting the planks across and securing them would require some more rope use rolls with assists. Whew!! Finally the characters are done. This whole thing game time took 1/2 an hour and more than several rolls. Before the magic user crosses he remembers that he has spider climb and casts it on himself to cross on the wall......

C&C Siege Engine:

Same plan, same group. Any reasonably competant thief could eventually use a grappling hook to secure a rope and get to the other side. Once on the other side, using a climbing kit, a reasonable thief should be able to secure the rope well. Putting planks across in a safe manner takes a little bit of time, but not a lot of danger. I would rule 1 DEX check to be made to complete the first phase of getting ropes across and securing them. 12 prime 2 Cl for a CC of 14. I never tell the CL. If he fails, I rule in my mind, it has consequences when the characters are crossing the bridge now or in haste in the future by having a failure of the bridge, and of course the Thief is highly competant in his job. The next part of the project, if taken slowly, with time, and the brains of magic user, the brawn of a fighter, and the quiet praying of the cleric, has little chance of failure, so I rule no roll. The success, or failure, of the project will be determined by the thief. But for all intents and purposes, they believed they succeded. "Ok, sounds like a simple enough plan given time. And you have the time right now. I am just going to require 1 Dex roll from the thief for the whole project. What did you get? Great! a 13!. Yeah, stomping on the bridge it seems pretty sturdy. Looks like you succeded!! Looks like you have a viable escape route if the Gnolls on the second level start getting the best of you.....". Total game time ~5 minutes.
_________________
Labor to keep alive in your breast that little spark of celestial fire called conscience.

-George Washington

[JonusBlackthorn]

Great example peel though I have to admit I was LMAO at the wizard in the first scenario, I've played a few games like that in the past.

[Emryys]

Perhaps the examples could use this standard syntax after the explanations...

Melkor wrote:
D20 + Character Level (if applicable) +/- Attribute Modifier (if applicable) + Other modifiers* => than Challenge Base (12/18 ) + Challenge Level (+1 to +20 or more)

This way they would all be in a similar format for easy comparison
_________________

[serleran]

Yeah, first, you have to determine what method you're using.

[PeelSeel2]

Ok, one more for the night....

Situation:

The Characters (A Halfling Thief, a Human fighter, an Elven magic user, a Half-Elf ranger, and a Half-Orc Cleric. All are 5th level.) are being pursued by a large army of Orcs, after having stole the object of their leaders attention. Thier is a wide, wild river to the south of the them, the Orcs to the east, low rolling hills to the north, and a festering swamp said to be haunted to the west. Across the river is a tribe of Elves which keep a watchful eye on the fast flowing river.

3.5E

The Half Orc, the Ranger , and the elf want to make knowledge rolls to see what they know of this particular Orc tribe that is after them. Neither have knowledge local, or Knowledge orcs, but the DM decides to be nice and allow them a knowledge check based off from the Rangers favored enemies, the cleric being a half-orc, and the elf having a knowledge skill and having his very distant kin nearby. Since Knowledge is a trained only skill , the DM rules that the Ranger and half-orc have a base of 15 + 3 for the particular tribe, so they need to get above an 18 on a D20. The Elf gets a 10+3 for a DC of 13. ~5-7 minutes looking at character sheets, chewing lips, and asking DM about checks because they don't have the skill. The DM has to wait extra time for them to come up with the idea of a roll 'outside the system'.

C&C

It seems resonable to me that a Ranger might have a tidbit of knowledge about an Orc Tribe around this area, and it seems resonable that an Elf from a distance away, might know some dangers his distant kin face in this area. It seems real resonable to me that a Half-Orc should be able to make a check. "Tell you what. The Ranger, and the Elf can make an INT roll at CL 3. The Half-Orc I am going to give an INT roll to at CL 0. This roll is to see if you remember some tidbit of information that can be of use to your characters to give you a slight advantage in the upcoming pursuit." This time I told them the CL so they can see how well they succeed. If I hear the inevitable "Yeah, I nailed it with 8 over!! Beat it by Five!!" or "Yeah, rolled a natural 20!" I might give them an extra tidbit beyond what I was going to give them to enhance their survival. ~1 minute. The players didn't have to look at their character sheets to see if they could do something. The players saw the situation and requested the checks. The CK immediatly determined who can make a roll and at what, and it was done.

The Half-Orcs in either party make the roll and remember that The Krusty Tribe will not go into the swamp, fearing it greatly. If the characters head into the swamp, maybe they could put some time between themselves and the Orcs.........

Half Orc Int Prime 12 +0 CL = 12CC vs d20+6 (5 for level, 1 for INT mod)

Half-Elf Ranger INt Non prime 18 +3 cl = 21CC vs d20+5 (5 for level)

Elven Magic User Int Prime 12 +3cl =15CC vs d20+8 (5 for level, 3 for int mod)
_________________
Labor to keep alive in your breast that little spark of celestial fire called conscience.

-George Washington