What am I doing wrong?

[moriarty777]

PS -- A tough challenge is having the total of monster HD matching the total party level. Acceptable to do but not for every encounter.
M

That used to be what we considered a balanced challenge when we played AD&D

Tough was perhaps not the best word. Balanced is. In a balanced challenge, characters can die as much as the monsters can which is why I said tough.



M

[Litzen Tallister]

I think computer games have a bit to do with this for two reasons:
1) in many games you are unable to go to places where you can be out right defeated with little effort, so there is a mentality that ALL games should have that feature
2) many games have a save point and so you can walk around with little fear of running into something un-beatable because you can just go back to your last saved point

I agree. In many computer games (and MMOs in particular, of which I think D&D in 4th edition tended to emulate), death is of no consequence. So, those that come from a computer gaming background may have a different view of the genre as a result.

It is a reminder of who used to be regulars and who have since moved on as well as those still around.

I just noticed that post number two in this thread is my twin brother, who was the one responsible for getting me into C&C.

[Fiffergrund]

Balance is important, but congruity is also.

Does that hill need a hill giant? Then give it a hill giant, and let the chips fall where they may.

Warning: putting a black dragon in every swamp, a blue dragon in every desert, a frost giant on every glacier, and a beholder in every dungeon will get you fragged by your players.

[Arduin]

Balance is important, but congruity is also.

Does that hill need a hill giant? Then give it a hill giant, and let the chips fall where they may.

Warning: putting a black dragon in every swamp, a blue dragon in every desert, a frost giant on every glacier, and a beholder in every dungeon will get you fragged by your players.

That goes to the heart of how EGG described the perils of outdoor adventuring. There are no "levels" to the outdoors. What is logically there is there no matter the level of the characters exploring...

[Zudrak]

*snip* I just noticed that post number two in this thread is my twin brother, who was the one responsible for getting me into C&C.

He needs to return since many familiar "faces" from the late 00's are still here/here again.

[pawndream]

In my very first C&C adventure I ran, coming off the heels of a nearly two-year stint of running 4e D&D, the PCs (all level 1), traveled to a sea cave where they encountered pair of diseased sea ogres in the employ of a hag. I knew the ogres were manageable, if the PCs were smart, but the hag was pretty much a "you-will-die-if-you-fight-her-straight-up" encounter.

The PCs dealt with the ogres, but were pretty badly scraped up after that encounter, but decided to press on anyway. They were operating on a 4e mentality, which basically consisted of carefully balanced encounters which all but ensured PC success, so long as they managed their resources correctly. Then came the confrontation.

The hag opened with parley, well mostly taunts and jeers but you get the idea, and the PCs started itching for a fight to shut the mouthy hag up. I had the hag raise an army of skeletons right at the PCs feet, to toy with them a bit, and to give them a clear indication she was way out of their league.

They dealt with the skeletons and were now pissed. So they proceeded to track her down in the cave. At this point I had to call a timeout and explain to them the difference in design philosophy between new and old games. In old games, running away was a viable option. In newer games, not so much. It took them a while to get it, but they eventually decided to retreat and come back another day.

The PCs are now 5th level, and facing off against that same hag. It just took a while.

TL; DR: Sometimes you need to be upfront with your players and let them know that some encounters are not "winnable".

[serleran]

I would never tell them they cannot win. They can discover that on their own. Besides, telling them might dissuade them from thinking of something I did not... or had forgotten.

For example, I ran a game where I had forgotten the halfling had a cherry pie in which was baked a lethal poison. It had only been baked the day before and put in a bag of preservation that the druid carried. See, I had forgotten it because it had been 8 sessions since that happened, even though the game time had not even advanced much. Well, anyway, they encountered a group of hill giants. They were only 3rd level and the giants would normally slaughter them easily. Well, the halfling opted to approach kindly and offered them the pie if only they would let the group retreat. They accepted. Ate it. Well, one did, anyway -- the chief. And died.


But, really, I think a lot of things come down to the DM expecting one style of play and the players having their own. If the DM could predict everything, that'd be pretty boring I think.

[pawndream]

I would never tell them they cannot win. They can discover that on their own. Besides, telling them might dissuade them from thinking of something I did not... or had forgotten.

Normally, I would agree with that, but in this case it was about expectation management. We were coming off of playing 4e D&D for two years and they were used to a balanced "combat economy", not the harsh, gritty realities of an "anything goes" style game. It was a much better option to let them know they weren't in Kansas anymore, without having to effect a TPK in our very first session of C&C.

[serleran]

That's cool. Some reminders can be effectual. I try to make it more subtle, myself, like "are you seriously going to kill this PC to appease some sort of idea that you can defeat my monster? Seriously? OK...."

[pawndream]

That's cool. Some reminders can be effectual. I try to make it more subtle, myself, like "are you seriously going to kill this PC to appease some sort of idea that you can defeat my monster? Seriously? OK...."

Yeah. I think in this case, it was basically me saying something to the effect of, "in old school style rules systems, it wasn't that uncommon to run into things you could not defeat in a straight up fight. Part of the fun was to recognize when you were outmatched and live to fight another die".

They have since learned this lesson really well. Especially when they recently encountered a flesh golem and proceeded to get pummeled to a pulp by said creature.

[Arduin]

They have since learned this lesson really well. Especially when they recently encountered a flesh golem and proceeded to get pummeled to a pulp by said creature.

Ah, it' fun to watch kids grow up.

[pawndream]

They have since learned this lesson really well. Especially when they recently encountered a flesh golem and proceeded to get pummeled to a pulp by said creature.

Ah, it' fun to watch kids grow up.

They grow so fast...

[Captain_K]

You got to warn a guy when you resurrect a thread like that... I thought, "Wow" this Inkpot guy really got everyone moving in like a day... Can you change the title with a "Resurrected Thread" prefix... yeah I know I can read the dates.. but that is not my first place to look.

I agree with the review and updated summary... death is not very real in video games.

I've found with my new group something new, they are the MOST unlucky group in my history, need a roll, it'll be a 1... need a 10 to hit it will be a 9.. 6 PCs could not kill one Goblin in 3 rounds.. as it ended, throwing everything at him, they managed to only knock him out. 5 games now and their luck has not changed. So I find myself really being careful of power and qty of creatures. CnC allows for simple and low level to be a challenge and a knife edge balance in each combat which way it will shift and how to get them out of jams. For this group we instituted, out of the CKG, both Luck Points and Hero Points, that has helped allow the PCs to direct when they REALLY need something good or even simple to happen, it has a better chance.

[DMSamuel]

Haha - I've had groups with an entire session of very bad luck (multiple rolls of 1-4, no rolls over 11) but usually that lasts only one session and then they improve. Sometimes the dice are just against you... but multiple sessions? That's rough!