Illusionists Too Limited?

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:13 pm

Illusionists' spells are very powerful - except in a typical dungeon adventure. The more powerful you get, the more monsters become immune to their mind affecting magic and illusionists are nearly completely lacking in "blasting power" compared to other spell casting classes. Does the creation of an illusionist PC, far more than any other character class, force CKs to rethink the sort of adventures they intend to run?

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:56 am

Not at all... in the hands of a clever player, an illusionist can be downright scary! However it also depends on you you treat illusions in the campaign. Do you automatically allow saves versus illusions or do you allow them if there is a reason to disbelieve in the illusion?

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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:00 am

I found the Illusionist terribly underpowered with the default C&C spell list. There are, of course, some imaginative ways to utilize the illusions but compared to the wizard lists the illusionist lists are abysmal. I hope that a book with expanded official lists gives the illusionist a much needed power boost.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:04 am

I don't see why the adventure would have to be modified. The class isn't designed for power, its designed for subtlety. Expecting exploding power from an illusionist is like expecting deadly fighting prowess from a thief.

Like the thief, the illusionist is adept at misdirection and fooling the eyes. And also like the thief, they take a certain subtlety and forethought to play.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:10 am

It would be nice to see more mimicking. Also, anyone looking to add spice to the class is welcome to post things on the Society forums for Grimoire Crusadus -- it is "official" as far as fan-products go, and we do have TLG's OK. So, that' something you can actively do rather than wait for someone to do it for you....

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:05 am

You know Illusionists are very good at mimicing fireballs, lightning bolts, summoning creatures, and everyone knows wizards do all those things, so no reason to believe they wouldn't be real, right? The really cool thing? Major Image allows them to do several fireballs in a row with one third level spell, and the fires everyone believes, will burn for three rounds even after the Illusionist runs away. If they even have to run away.

The trick, as an Illusionist, is to not tip those in the "know" off by using Illusionist only spells, such as Blur, Color Spray, etc...

When an Illusionist can, they'll get magic items that allow them to do things like Magic Missile, to sell an even better "image" for their subterfuge. Even to those in the "know".

This is why their deceptively weak class ability of Disguise is actually the key to their real power. They can fool anyone.
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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:08 am

I think one of the limiting factors that doesn't make sense is the fact that self-willed Undead (Ghasts, Liches, Wraiths, Vampires) are immune to mind altering magic (Illusions being a prime example) just as much as low intelligence undead (Zombies, Ghouls, Mummies). That doesn't make sense to me as they ARE Intelligent and SHOULD be given to beleiving what they see. Something like a Skeleton being immune I can understand as it has no form of sense whatsoever (no eyes, ears etc).

Of course, adding back to the game the Illusionist spells from Unearthed Arcana helps. I also give them access to the Shadow School magicks from Spells & Powers. That pads out the arsenal quite a bit.
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:14 am

I can understand how illusionists can be potent in the right circumstances (e.g. a party of 6th level characters wander somewhere they shouldn't and get attacked by a purple worm: a wizard could only hit it with 6d6 damage before being eaten, whereas an illusionist could create an illusory herd of cattle which the brainless worm would merrily scoff, allowing the PCs to run away or sneak past) but only in the right circumstances. Apart from things like undead-heavy adventures hurting them, they just have a lot fewer spells (12 per level vs 20 per level for wizards or 8 vs 12 for the very powerful) and too many of them are very specialised... there are four spells all devoted to preventing scrying attempts, for instance, which is great if you know an enemy wizard is going to scry on your general's tent, but in a typical dungeon bash is as much use as a Cornish phrasebook in the Gobi desert. Too many spells like False Trap, Secret Page, Dream, Secure Shelter are killers in the right place but for the other 90% of the time are just wasting slots. Wizards, by contrast, always have a fine selection of ubiquitous monster blasting, escaping and detection spells which are never bad to have.

Treebore wrote:
You know Illusionists are very good at mimicing fireballs, lightning bolts, summoning creatures, and everyone knows wizards do all those things, so no reason to believe they wouldn't be real, right?

Things like this are a headache... okay, so the ogres believe in the fireball. Assuming they haven't been "fireballed" before, how much damage they take from it is going to depend on what? Are the ogres meta-gamers who know that a fireball does 1d6 damage per level of the spellcaster? If so, what level do they think the caster is? Does a high level fireball look more intense than a low level one and if so, can a low level caster create an illusion of a high level fireball and hit believers with 14d6 damage even though he's only 5th level? If not, why not?

bighara · Post by **bighara** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:49 pm

This topic came up at DF's C&C board a while back, so I thought I would just quote my reply from there

Quote:
In my last C&C game, one of the PCs was an elven illusionist. The player was quite ingenious in using her spells in combat, but not usually like the ways described above. Rarely, would she mimic an attack spell or create an image of a monster. Though once in a while she did. Creativity and subterfuge are the hallmarks of a good illusionist. They aren't about flinging fireballs -real or otherwise- if they were, they'd be wizards.

Once she made an illusion in a smoldering ruin that the flames flared back up. This scared several goblins sneaking through the ruins so badly they passed out (the imaginary damage "killed" them). She would also do things like cast darkness on an enemy's helmet, use dancing lights and/or ghost sound to lead people and monsters astray, turn scouts invisible, etc. She also made good use of color spray as an offensive spell.

The party had a "real" wizard, so she often was sort of a "backup" spell caster, but her style was very much about trickery and -well- illusions.

casual_observer · Post by **casual_observer** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:42 pm

Whether an illusionist is a member of a party, or not, tailoring adventures and balancing encounters based on the mix of races/classes in a group is an essential skill for any CK that must be developed over time.

I don't think it's really all that more difficult to structure adventures for Illusionist PC's as opposed to any other class. Just don't spam the party to death with monsters that are immune to illusion effects and provide occassional encounters where the Illusionist will get to shine, by using his unique ablilites. Again, the same could be said when considering the other classes in the group.

Illusionists ARE highly specialized and less powerful and versatile than wizards, generally speaking, but they are the best at what they do. The class is designed for people who want to play these highly specialized mages. All others should consider training in the wizardly arts, instead.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:57 pm

My sentiments fall with CasOb exactly as they are spot on.

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Keolander · Post by **Keolander** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:52 pm

I also think its true that C&C Illusionists are not as powerful as their 1st Edition AD&D counterparts. A C&C Illusionist has to wait until 17th lvl to get Weird, whereas a 1st Edition Illusionist gets it at 14th lvl. Sure, the C&C Illusionist gets Polymorph Other, Clone and a bunch of other Wizard spells, but it feels like they were tacked on 'just because'.

The same for the Druid (in my opinion) as it would be better to go back to the style of those two subclasses (Illusionist and Druid) from 1st Edition as far as spell progression in that 7th lvl spells are the top (and adapting the Heirophant Druid for over 15h lvl would be good too I think, but maybe think it out a little better as it was kinda wonky).
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:12 pm

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
Things like this are a headache... okay, so the ogres believe in the fireball. Assuming they haven't been "fireballed" before, how much damage they take from it is going to depend on what? Are the ogres meta-gamers who know that a fireball does 1d6 damage per level of the spellcaster? If so, what level do they think the caster is? Does a high level fireball look more intense than a low level one and if so, can a low level caster create an illusion of a high level fireball and hit believers with 14d6 damage even though he's only 5th level? If not, why not?

There's no headache. If the Ogres believe the spell is real, then they take the damage of the spell. Full stop.
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Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:37 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
There's no headache. If the Ogres believe the spell is real, then they take the damage of the spell. Full stop.

But how much damage is the question.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:56 pm

Buttmonkey wrote:
But how much damage is the question.

No, there is no question. As I already stated, they take the damage of the spell.
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Buttmonkey · Post by **Buttmonkey** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:42 pm

But the damage of the spell depends on the level of the spellcaster. Do you go with the illusionist's level? Does that mean a 10th level illusionist can only create an illusion of a fireball that is as nasty as a 10th level wizard could cast? If the damage is based on the victim's belief that the illusion is real, how does the victim know what level the "fireball" was cast at?

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:04 pm

Buttmonkey wrote:
Do you go with the illusionist's level?

Of course you would.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:22 am

Buttmonkey wrote:
But the damage of the spell depends on the level of the spellcaster. Do you go with the illusionist's level? Does that mean a 10th level illusionist can only create an illusion of a fireball that is as nasty as a 10th level wizard could cast? If the damage is based on the victim's belief that the illusion is real, how does the victim know what level the "fireball" was cast at?

Maybe it would help if I give some background about how I allow Illusionists to use Fireballs, etc... They have to observed them, up close. So either they have a full wizard as a full party member, or they have to wait for their own party to be on the receiving end. The Illusionist is assumed to have superior powers of observation, so takes note of noise levels, heat, etc...

These observations and personal experiences allows them to create duplicates of those spells with their own. Equal to their own level, because they are able to make these spells mimic similar levels of heat, noise, etc....
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:50 am

Treebore wrote:
You know Illusionists are very good at mimicing fireballs, lightning bolts, summoning creatures, and everyone knows wizards do all those things, so no reason to believe they wouldn't be real, right? The really cool thing? Major Image allows them to do several fireballs in a row with one third level spell, and the fires everyone believes, will burn for three rounds even after the Illusionist runs away. If they even have to run away.

The trick, as an Illusionist, is to not tip those in the "know" off by using Illusionist only spells, such as Blur, Color Spray, etc...

When an Illusionist can, they'll get magic items that allow them to do things like Magic Missile, to sell an even better "image" for their subterfuge. Even to those in the "know".

This is why their deceptively weak class ability of Disguise is actually the key to their real power. They can fool anyone.

The real problem though isn't whether or not an illusionist can do that, but why play the class if you are going to do that.

If I wanted to play a fireball flinger, I'd just make a wizard.

Playing a class based on subtlety just to mimic a wizard is rather lame and cheapens the illusionist.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:18 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
The real problem though isn't whether or not an illusionist can do that, but why play the class if you are going to do that.

Why play any class? Simple. The challenge.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:45 pm

It's more of a challenge to play an illusionist as an illusionist than playing one as a counterfeit wizard.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:51 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
It's more of a challenge to play an illusionist as an illusionist than playing one as a counterfeit wizard.

Personally I had more fun playing a counterfeit wizard. Then again, it may have been because he is also a gnome.
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JediOre · Post by **JediOre** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:00 pm

But see, that's the beauty of playing an illusionist. He can be a mock wizard or as a more sly spellcaster based upon the spell selection and the needs of the party.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:27 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
It's more of a challenge to play an illusionist as an illusionist than playing one as a counterfeit wizard.

But thats part of the trick of playing the class, convincing others that reality isn't the reality that they think it is.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:32 pm

Yup, and there are far more interesting ways to do so.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:05 pm

And don't get me wrong. I think the illusionist is a capable class, it just takes a bit of work to make the most of it. For me, counterfeiting wizard spells is a cheap way of "strengthening" the class.

My players have never used the class, but I did run a short campaign with an illusionist as the villain and oh how they hated the dude.

Also, I slightly tweak the class by giving it one additional class ability. Illusionists are masters of perception and get an ability similar to the Case Target ability that assassins have. Lets them better tailor their deceptions to their target.

Luther · Post by **Luther** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:13 pm

Illusion spells can be just as deadly in the hands of a creative player, like the one in my group who has found a ton of uses for the simple Dancing Lights spell. He has used it to get into people's line of sight, forced drunken barbarians back into pits as well as using them as a simple light source. That's a hell of a lot more versatile than a magic missle.

As for why a player would want to use an illusion of a fireball as opposed to the real thing, the character might be a pacifist of a sorts, going out of their way to never harm another creature directly. The character in our game is (or rather was before his brother PC was killed during an adventure into Quasqueton) one of two brothers (one the illusionist and one a bard) who travelled in a carnival as a two man sound and light show. Think a medieval Pink Floyd and you get the idea.

So there are many reasons to play an illusionist and a DM/CK who lets his player's get reasonably creative will find a player who finds a great deal of utility in the Illusionist spells...
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:17 pm

Luther wrote:
As for why a player would want to use an illusion of a fireball as opposed to the real thing, the character might be a pacifist of a sorts, going out of their way to never harm another creature directly.

Eh. Causing psychic damage and even death isn't indirect at all. It's direct harm. It's just less stinky.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:27 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
Eh. Causing psychic damage and even death isn't indirect at all. It's direct harm. It's just less stinky.

Now there's a means to make your illusionist more dangerous. Go with the theme that they are more of a psychic since their powers affect perception.

That means anti magic areas wouldn't affect them...
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:30 pm

Hrmmmm....

The PHB does state that the illusions cause damage to the psyche/mind.

Interesting thought.