Turning undead and line of sight

[bighara]

Party is going to be coming to a room where zombies attack after an Obscuring Mist fills the room. My question is with the rotten visibility and Turning treated as a "special, ranged combat attack" (PHB p.121), how should I handle it? The zombies come from different directions and if they are over 5' away they are completely concealed by the mist. I tend to think of undead turning as LoS-based. i.e. the undead need to be able to see the holy symbol, etc. as opposed to a "blast radius" where any undead within range are affected regardless.

How have other people handled this? Has it even come up in your games?

[Fiffergrund]

I personally feel that there must be line-of-sight between the undead and the cleric.

Some feel that it's a burst of holy power, and is simply a blast radius.

I suppose that it's up to individual interpretation. I will note that the cleric must have the holy symbol to turn undead, which makes me lean toward the line-of-sight interpretation.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[bighara]

Fiffergrund wrote:
I personally feel that there must be line-of-sight between the undead and the cleric.

Some feel that it's a burst of holy power, and is simply a blast radius.

I suppose that it's up to individual interpretation. I will note that the cleric must have the holy symbol to turn undead, which makes me lean toward the line-of-sight interpretation.

Yeah, I lean twds a LoS thing. I don't want to screw the PCs over (there's just 1st level, so if things get too dicey, they're toast). But if the cleric simple sets of a Holy EMP and all the undead in the room are potentially affected, then it's a pretty boring encounter.

[anonymous]

I'd incline to Line of Sight. Turning undead is like old horror films where the vampire sees a cross and turns away, hissing.

[Maliki]

bighara wrote:
Yeah, I lean twds a LoS thing. I don't want to screw the PCs over (there's just 1st level, so if things get too dicey, they're toast). But if the cleric simple sets of a Holy EMP and all the undead in the room are potentially affected, then it's a pretty boring encounter.

But, because of the mist, the PCs will not know how many undead are actually there, so you could always add a few to still pull off the the encounter. (Or if he blows the roll, you can reduce the number to keep the PCs from being slaughtered.
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[Lord Dynel]

I'm also in agreement with the LoS adjudication. I figure if they can see the cleric, they can be subject to the awesomeness of the cleric's turning ability.

[serleran]

Some undead are unable to see. Some clerics are unable to see. Turning works just fine in either case.

[bighara]

Well, it's only 6 zombies, with 4 PCs. I suppose that even if he only manages to turn 1-2 of them, even one at a time, the party isn't in TOO much peril.
...of course I could have them all rush the cleric, just to give him a chance to turn a bunch at once.

[moriarty777]

Well, I'm not sure I agree with some of the reasons and justifications given. I think it really comes down how you run your undead. Please forgive some of my rambling here but, when making your choice -- consider the following:

Will undead be fooled by Invisibility? I seem to remember that in certain editions of D&D and AD&D, undead were not affected by illusion or invisibility. One way or the other, you may then want to consider the 'why' to that question? Other things to consider -- a Vampire may have eyes but a skeleton most likely has none. Why would both recoil away from a holy symbol? What are they really recoiling away from? Is it the sight of a holy symbol or the force of the person holding that symbol and the believes he or she holds?

Finally, when you're cleric casts other spells, do the recipients have to see the cleric, holy symbol, or have believe in the same divine being that the cleric believes in for it to work? How does this relate to other things if your campaign has a pantheon of deities and how could this relate to turning?

No matter how you answer these questions, it should give you a few things to think about. For the record, in this circumstance, I believe in the cleric (and not the symbol) is the source of this power. I don't believe that the undead need to see the cleric or symbol for the turning to take effect but he or she need to be able to see THEM in order to to make an attempt to turn them. Once 'targetted' and if the turning is successful, I have it work like a blast effect. If the cleric can't see them, he can't turn them. If the cleric is somehow taken out of the fight (knocked unconscious or worse), any turning that was in effect is lost.

M
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[moriarty777]

serleran wrote:
Some undead are unable to see. Some clerics are unable to see. Turning works just fine in either case.

You see... a fine example of a question/scenario I hadn't thought of: Blind Clerics.

M
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[Fiffergrund]

My POV has little to do with whether the cleric or undead can actually *see*, it's just a requirement that there be line of sight.

Corners, walls, better than 50% concealment....I think these should block turning.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

[Hengist]

My feelings are that UnDead have no functioning organs. {Makes it so they cannot be back-stabbed - no vital organs in a corpse.} That means they have no functioning eyes. Therefore they do not "see" a holy symbol. BUT since they are "energized" from the Negative Material Plane, they can sense living creatures {energized by the Postive Material Plane} and seek to destroy them. This sense is NOT foiled by normal Invis or even Improved Invis - mainly on the basis that there is a separate Invis to Undead spell. {Of Clerical nature, similar to the Druidical Invis to Animals in that it negates those extra senses, other than sight, used to detect the Invis person.} This sense would be blocked by solid walls. So, to the original question, I do NOT picture the Obscuring Mist a blocking this sense. BUT, to "be fair to the party" (buncha whiners!) I would tell them they sense something in the mist. AND, since you had said there were Zombies, I would add the smell of rotting flesh to the atmosphere. {Not so much had they been Skeletons.} I'm thinking of it not so much as "seeing the holy symbol" as "sensing the presence" of the cleric. His presenting the holy symbol focuses him on his PosMatPlane engery and (maybe) some them run away.

I think of this like the scene (from LoTR) where Frodo puts on the One Ring and enters the "world" of the Ring-Wraiths. Suddenly he can see them clearly, and they can see him clearly! AND, he lacks his normal senses of "the real world". {I do NOT plan on having such an artifact in my campaign - strictly for visualization only!}

Now, I have a question - party is jumped by 8 Zombies, Cleric turns 3. Great! NEXT round he tries to turn MORE OF THE SAME GROUP! Now my friends (the aforementioned "whiners") are telling me that "since it doesn't say he can't, he MUST be able to do that". My ruling was that he had HAD his way w/ that group and could not try further turning UNLESS a new group of Zombies jumped into the fray. Anyone got any comments on THAT situation??

[DangerDwarf]

Hengist wrote:
Now, I have a question - party is jumped by 8 Zombies, Cleric turns 3. Great! NEXT round he tries to turn MORE OF THE SAME GROUP! Now my friends (the aforementioned "whiners") are telling me that "since it doesn't say he can't, he MUST be able to do that". My ruling was that he had HAD his way w/ that group and could not try further turning UNLESS a new group of Zombies jumped into the fray. Anyone got any comments on THAT situation??

Per the PHB:
Essentially, a cleric has one chance to turn each opponent in a combat or 24 hour period

Only turning 3 of 8, he has already had his 1 chance to turn the remaining 5.

[DangerDwarf]

For me, the turning is an area of effect and thus doesn't require LoS. The holy symbol serves as a channel for divinity and focal point of the effect, not as an object the undead must see. It radiates the divine power. Just like if it were radiating heat, the dude around the corner would still feel it.