Troll Lord Games

I just bought a relatively mint copy of Oriental Adventures at my local Half Price Books store and am now mining it for material.

I've already decided to use the Martial Arts rules, allowing the C&C Monk class to gain a basic style at 1st level and then a 'proficiency' slot to spend on styles (including weapon proficiences that will be usable with the unarmed combat bonuses) at level 3 and every 3rd level afterwards. Note that I'm not instituing a Proficiencies system in general, I like the skill by fiat system of C&C, but I needed something to structure the growth of a style around. My only quandry at this point is how to reconcile this with the monks current hand-to-hand style, which I might just call the 'no-style' that a monk can always fall back on.

I also thought of how to transfer the various classes. Some of them, the Samurai, Kensai, Barbarian, Bushi, and Sohei seem like fairly straight transfers.

For the Wu-Jen and Shukenga, I'd likely use the Wizard and Cleric Spells per Day tables for the number of spells known, but restrict them to the OA spell lists. Other than that, they use their OA descriptions and abilities.

The Ninja and Yakuza would have the same rules as in OA, but in place of the percentage tables, I'd treat these abilities as a standard d20+ATT roll with a bonus equal to the percentage/5. So a Level 1 Ninja (Move Silently 15%/+3) with a 12 Dex prime would have to get a 9 or better to move silently in ideal conditions. A Level 1 Yakuza with an 12 Int Prime could Investigate (20%/+4) a 1 block area and successfully get info on an 8 or better.

Of course, I'd axe the Proficiency system for the reason already mentioned, but in it's place, I'd place a staggered Martial Arts Styles slot into each class, with some getting more proficiency slots than others.

As an alternative, I thought about just allowing any OA characters to spend XP on styles instead of applying them to levels. You could do this once per level and the cost would be 1000XP x level for a basic style and then 300XP x level for each manuever or weapon learned from that style. It would retard level gains, but provide an alternate source of power.

Of course, all OA characters would have to suffer the slings and arrows of Honour and Family.

I'm still reading the rest of the book to see how some of the other rules work (I'm particularly interested in some of the neat combat rules) but if anyone else has already converted most of this material over to be as C&C as possible (i.e. more attention to making OA fit C&C than vice versa), I'd love to have a look at it...
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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.

Ahhhh, Oriental Adventures. The book that got me into Dungeons and Dragons to begin with. I'm going to have to try and find a copy of that now.

Were you planning on doing a write up of your conversions? I'd be interested in seeing them if you do. The one thing I wonder though is that do you think that the percentage conversions for Ninja and Yakuza make the abilities too easy to accomplish from the start?

ishmael161 wrote:
Ahhhh, Oriental Adventures. The book that got me into Dungeons and Dragons to begin with. I'm going to have to try and find a copy of that now.

Were you planning on doing a write up of your conversions? I'd be interested in seeing them if you do. The one thing I wonder though is that do you think that the percentage conversions for Ninja and Yakuza make the abilities too easy to accomplish from the start?

Once I figure it all out and see how it works in play, I'll be happy to post it. But honestly, a lot of it is as easy to convert as most D&D/AD&D stuff for C&C (which seems to me to be the gaming equivelent of the Rossetta Stone when it comes to translating between the various editions of D&D), so like all the other conversions I've done (using the B series moduels and creatures from the Fiend Folio, for example), there will probably be almost nothing to write down. That's why I love this game: on the fly conversion.

As for the slightly better abilities of the Ninja and Yakuza over the standard thief, I had thought about that but three things sprang to mind:

1. The fact that a Ninja has some very tough restrictions (hiding his identity, being forced to multi-class, etc.), and the Yakuza is far more effective in his 'region' and loses some of his unique abilities outside of it, not to mention the higher XP needed to gain levels (especially the Ninja who is only getting half the XP to assign to his massive 4000 needed to go to level 2), I thought that frontloading them a bit would make them more useful for the extended stay they'll be experiencing at lower levels.

2. They wouldn't necessarily get a raise to their abilities every level if you round down all fractions. Both would have a +5 chance to picking locks at 1st level, but they wouldn't recieve another boost until they reached 3rd because at 2nd level the 29% translates to +5 still.

3. The background reasons - Ninjas are supposed to be major scary and I doubt anyone less than extremely talented would be able to join their ranks, Yakuza have to be able to intimidate with their abilities and command respect, so again, the less than talented need not apply. We're not talking the typical thief here. these guys are to normal thieves what Samurai and Kensai are to Bushi.
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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.

Luther wrote:
Once I figure it all out and see how it works in play, I'll be happy to post it. But honestly, a lot of it is as easy to convert as most D&D/AD&D stuff for C&C (which seems to me to be the gaming equivelent of the Rossetta Stone when it comes to translating between the various editions of D&D), so like all the other conversions I've done (using the B series moduels and creatures from the Fiend Folio, for example), there will probably be almost nothing to write down. That's why I love this game: on the fly conversion.

As for the slightly better abilities of the Ninja and Yakuza over the standard thief, I had thought about that but three things sprang to mind:

1. The fact that a Ninja has some very tough restrictions (hiding his identity, being forced to multi-class, etc.), and the Yakuza is far more effective in his 'region' and loses some of his unique abilities outside of it, not to mention the higher XP needed to gain levels (especially the Ninja who is only getting half the XP to assign to his massive 4000 needed to go to level 2), I thought that frontloading them a bit would make them more useful for the extended stay they'll be experiencing at lower levels.

2. They wouldn't necessarily get a raise to their abilities every level if you round down all fractions. Both would have a +5 chance to picking locks at 1st level, but they wouldn't recieve another boost until they reached 3rd because at 2nd level the 29% translates to +5 still.

3. The background reasons - Ninjas are supposed to be major scary and I doubt anyone less than extremely talented would be able to join their ranks, Yakuza have to be able to intimidate with their abilities and command respect, so again, the less than talented need not apply. We're not talking the typical thief here. these guys are to normal thieves what Samurai and Kensai are to Bushi.

Ahhh, I had forgotten that ninja were required to multi-class. Those points make sense and I think you're right that front loading them a little bit will balance out the fact that they level more slowly. I'm definitely going to have to get this book.[/code]

ishmael161 wrote:
Ahhh, I had forgotten that ninja were required to multi-class. Those points make sense and I think you're right that front loading them a little bit will balance out the fact that they level more slowly. I'm definitely going to have to get this book.

Yep. That ninja is one slow leveller. Just the Ninja class alone requires as much XP as any normal two class combo.

I have been looking for this book for ages and I just happened to find one in really good condition the week after one of my players (whose previous character met a heroic but untimely end) decided to make a monk for his next PC.

The temptation to derail our B and X series module tour for a complete OA campaign has been intense. I've managed to stave it off for the time being, contenting myself with the added utility for the Monk, but if there's a TPK in the near future, there's no telling what I might do...
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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.

Here is a long-ago variation of the ninja class, but I am not sure I like it any more:

Ninja

BtH = Level -1

HD = d6

Weapons Allowed = All

Armor Allowed = Restricted (As Rogue)

Abilities [As Per C&C PHB]

Hide

Move Silently

Sneak Attack

Back Attack

Death Attack

Unarmed Attack

Unarmored Defense

Disguise

Poisons

Climb

Open Locks

Case Target

Abilities [As Per Thief-Acrobat]

Acrobatics: This is the skilled art of tumbles, flips, and all manners of bodily maneuvering based on balance, agility, and precision of motion. It is a technically kinesthetic knowledge, so those who are untrained may only attempt the most basic of actions at the Castle Keepers discretion, and as noted in individual descriptions.

Tightrope Walking (Dexterity): A skilled acrobat can ordinarily walk a tightrope (any sort of rope, or wire, of about one inch thickness) without the need for a check. However, under windy or wet conditions, a check is required, at the Castle Keeper's discretion, with the recommended difficulties as follows, cumulative per condition:

Light Wind / -1

Moderate Wind / -2

Heavy Wind / -4

Light Wetness / -1

Moderate Wetness / -2

Downpour / -6

Using a 10 Foot Balance Pole / +2

This ability assumes the character does not wish to travel more than their walking speed, or at a degree greater than standard walking (up to a 45 degree angle is allowable.) Movement at greater speed, and angles, but must require a check for success. Moving at running speeds requires a check at -6, and one at greater than 45 degrees, but less than 75 (more than this should be a climbing check) incur a -2. Finally, if the character is using a very thin (less than 1 inch) rope, a check is always required, and is made at -2. Any failure results in the character falling, suffering appropriate damage as applicable. Note: any character can use this ability, but those not so trained are always required to make a check, and are limited to half normal speed; they cannot attempt to move quicker.

Jump (Strength or Dexterity): A successful check allows the character to move a number of feet indicated by the modifier to the check, as detailed below. The maximum distance of any jump is a function of the character's height. The difficulty modifier is applied per foot of additional movement. Movement made in this way counts for the total distance a character can travel in a round. A failed check results in the character moving the minimum distance allowed for the type of jump, with attendant results; for example, if a character wished to perform a running jump across a seven foot gap, but failed, five feet would still be cleared, and the character would fall for the remaining two, with results appropriate to the situation. Note: no check is required to move the minimum distances allowed.

Type of Jump / Min Distance / Difficulty Mod. / Max Distance

Running Jump / 5 feet / +1 / +600%

Standing Jump / 3 feet / +2 / +200%

Running High Jump / 2 feet / +4 / +150%

Standing High Jump / 2 feet / +8 / +50%

Backwards Jump / 1 foot / +8 / +25%

Very fast characters (those with a movement of greater than 30 feet per round) gain a +2 bonus on all checks where speed and momentum are applicable, such as all running jumps. Very slow characters (those with a movement of 15 feet per round or less) apply a -2 penalty to all jumps.

Vault (Dexterity): By means of pole, speed, and proper placement, a trained acrobat is able to fling himself over obstacles, much like a catapult. The use of this ability requires a pole of at least 10 feet length, and at least 30 feet of running room; the longer the pole, the more room needed, typically at a 3 to 1 ratio so a 20 foot pole would need 60 feet to gather the required speed. This ability functions nearly identically to that of Jump, except the minimum distance is the length of the pole. For each additional foot, the character suffers a -1 penalty, with a maximum distance equal to the pole plus 150% of the character's height. No check is normally needed, if the character simply wants to cover the specified minimum distance; to land on one's feet requires a check. No damage is sustained from the use of this ability, and it does not protect the character from landing in a hazardous area. Use of this ability counts as the character's movement for a round. Alternatively, a lever mechanism, such as a springboard might be used. These follow the same rules as above, except the minimum distance covered is reduced to 8 feet; maximum distance and cumulative penalties, however, remain the same.

Pratfall (Dexterity): As a master of heights, able to negate,

or partially reduce damage sustained from falls and other mishaps, skilled acrobats suffer less when falling. Whenever the acrobat falls, a Dexterity save is allowed to reduce damage. Every four levels attained, the character automatically reduces a cumulative die of damage, so that at 8th level damage is reduced by 2d6 damage; this means a fall of 20 feet or less deal no damage. Should the character fall a greater distance than this amount, a Dexterity save is allowed with a difficulty equal to double the dice inflicted (a fall of 50 feet would be a difficulty of 10, for example); success on this save reduces a number of dice equal to half the character's (rounded down) level.

Example: A 6th level acrobat is walking a tightrope from one parapet to

the next and a sudden gush of wind causes the character to fall. He falls 70 feet. 1d6 dice of damage is automatically reduced, meaning he will be taking 6d6. He opts to make a save, with a difficulty of 14. He makes the save with a lucky natural 20, and reduces the remaining damage by 3 (half of 6) dice, suffering much less from the mishap.

Delayed Abilities

@ 3rd - Invisibility [As Spell 1 / Day]

@ 3rd Stunning Attack [As C&C PHB]

@ 4th - Featherlight [New]

Featherlight: A ninja with this ability does not leave trails and cannot be tracked, as if affected by a pass without trace spell. This is a permanent ability, though a ninja may opt to leave a track if desired.

@ 6th - Improved Invisibility [As Spell 1 / Day]

@ 6th - Wuxia [New]

Wuxia: The ninja has mastered kinetic motion and can bend the laws of reality momentarily. Once per day, a ninja can ignore a restriction on an acrobatic skill such as ignoring the height restriction on jump distances or can use the Monk ability of Deflect Missiles as those they were 9th level. If the latter is chosen, the ninja can, instead of deflecting, cause the weapon to return to its source, or have it attack another creature within range; either use requires the ninja to make an attack roll for a ranged weapon as normal, though any magical bonuses the weapon might have are used.

@ 10th - Dojo [New]

Dojo - Having gained the confidence of superiors, the ninja is given permission to open a dojo of his own. Each month, for one year, the ninja must make a Charisma check against a difficulty of 8. If the check is successful, 1d3 students arrive, seeking training. There is always a clan representative present at the ninja's dojo sent to act as spy, enforcer, and trainer; the clan representative is always two levels lower than the ninja PC and will act as instructor to any gained followers, freeing the PC to continue adventuring -- the clan representative will never adventure, and asking is cause for alarm. Students are all zero-level, having only basic skills, though they become 1st level ninjas after one year of training. Should the ninja gain 12 or more students, the clan will send an assistant instructor who is a 6th level ninja.

@ 12th - Quivering Palm [As C&C PHB]

XP Progression

2nd - 2876

3rd - 8351

4th - 17451

5th - 34901

6th - 78801

7th - 157601

8th - 314001

9th - 628801

10th - 795601

11th - 1110801

12th - 1275901

+ / Level - 157600
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Serl's Corner

Ninja: I would use the C&C assassin class, but add the special ki powers of the OA ninja and give combat proficiencies (ninjutsu) as you do for monks. Then, I would give the paladin XP progression... I would not go the OA method.
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Zebulon wrote:
Ninja: I would use the C&C assassin class, but add the special ki powers of the OA ninja and give combat proficiencies (ninjutsu) as you do for monks. Then, I would give the paladin XP progression... I would not go the OA method.

The main difference between the OA Ninja and the C&C Assassin is:

Tightrope walk

Pole Vault

Fall

Escape

Back Attack

Open Locks

Hold Breath (L1 Ki)

Walk on Water (L5 Ki)

Pass through Walls (L12 Ki)

Must Multiclass with one of Bushi, Sohei, Wu Jen or Yakuza

Honour

Strong Family Ties (unless nukenin)

So as you can see, you'd be adding quite a bit to the Assassin class to make him a Ninja, doubling his abilities which, in my mind should double the XP progression of the Assassin class which brings it close to the OA Ninjas anyway. And that's before counting the abilities of second class an OA ninja is required to take which would make him so ability heavy I'd find him hard to adjudicate as a CK.

So what are the options? Here is my take on what you suggested:

1. Go ahead and mix the C&C Assassin and OA Ninja, use the Assassins To-hit bonus, add the Monks Unarmoured AC bonus (in addition to the bonus based on Martial Arts style) and use the Ninja's XP chart. It makes the character highly useful but slow to level (although not as slow as if they had to multiclass).

2. Lose the Multiclass restriction. This makes some sense, because Ninja, traditionally, posed as commoners or low ranking members of the military, which could easily be accomplished with the Disguise ability. On top of that, disallow ninja multiclassing. If they have truly spent their life in a certain background role (peasant, courtier, geisha, soldier, etc.), then left them make rolls for skills pertaining to that background, but do not let them take class specific abilities from other classes. So a ninja posing as a 'village shaman' would not use spells but would probably have a number of magic tricks to make you think he does as well as some basic herbology and apothecary skills.

3. Weapons and Armour include all Ninja Weapons as given in the OA as well as any that the CK believes would be important to the ninja's background role. So a Ninja who poses as a Bushi, would have the weapon and armour proficiencies of that class, but none of the class abilities, and certain armours would still interfere with his ninja class abilities.

4. Martial Arts: The Ninja starts out with one Basic Style and may add one Special Manuever or Weapon Proficiency to that style. He may add one additional Special Manuever or Weapon Proficiency at level 3 and every 3rd level after (based on table 56 in the OA book).

5. Keep the Honour and Family Tie rules and subject to the restrictions given on page 21 of the OA book. Ninjas created in a western setting should be nukenin and suffer frequent (at least once per adventure) assassination attempts and general harrassment as well.

6. Ninja roll a D8 for their Hit Die. I made this up as it is the middle die between the C&C Assassin and the C&C Monk, both of which the Ninja shares traits with.

That would be the ideal cross-system ninja for me. And it is a bit easier to just add and remove abilities as they are given then translating percentages and such. In addition, there are some very ninja skills, like poisons, casing and listen that I think are excellent additions to the class...
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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.

I'll use OA for if I run a FR campaign , until I come up with a suitable asian culture for the world I'm developing .
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Let me wet my blade with your blood.

RIP Gary Gygax you will be missed.

So far, I have identified only two OA character classes that need modfying: The Ninja (which I did above) and the Monk. The player creating a monk character sat down with me last night and we worked out how to mix the OA Monk with the C&C monk to maximize playability while keeping things as simple as possible. Here is the shorthand version of the class which requires you to have both books, I'll do a complete version when we've played the class a bit:
MONK
Prime Attribute: Any one.
HD: D8
Alignment Any Lawful
BtH: As C&C
Weapons: Determined by Martial Art Style.
Armour: None
Abilities (C&C): Mind over Body, Stunning Attack, Unarmoured Defense*, Deflect Missles, Fast Movement, Ki Strike*, Slow Fall, Purity of Body, Still Body, Fast Healing, Still Mind*, Quivering Palm.
Abilities (OA): Additional Attacks*, Additional Damage, Martial Arts*

*NOTES: The following abilities have been slightly modified to work together...
Unarmoured Defense and Martial Arts: The OA version of these two abilities restricts monks from adding Dex bonuses to AC and also forces the player to choose between the greater bonus from either UD or MA, but never both. It makes up for this by having a much more robust AC chart for the Monk than the C&C version.

To reconcile the two, simplify the rules and give a boost to the AC of 1st level monks in C&C, I've used the C&C AC chart, but allow the player to add his Dex bonus or his Martial Arts Bonus to his unarmoured AC. The end result is that a level 1 Monk has a possible 12-15 AC in OA and C&C, while a 12th level monk with a potential AC of 21-24 in OA will have an AC of 17-20 in C&C. These are roughly comparative given the rules differences between the two.
Ki Strike and Additional Damage: The Additional Martial Arts Damage chart is used instead of the damage bouns from Ki Strike, however, like Ki Strike, this damage is treated as Magical with a +bonus equal to the Monk's Level/4.
Still Mind: The bonuses gained from Still Mind stack with the bonuses gained from the Martial Arts Special Manuever: Mental Resistance. Yes, this means a Monk that goes mental will be very hard to mentally attack.
Additional Attacks: The Primary and Secondary attacks chart in C&C has been abandoned in favour of the additional attacks provided by Martial Arts and a simplified version of the Additional Attacks table in the OA Monk class. To wit:

LVL #ATT

9 +1

14 +2

16 +3

So a level 1 Monk, depending on style would have 1-2 attacks and a level 12 Monk would have 2-3 attacks. The most attacks a monk could ever get is +5 at level 16+. A veritable whirlwind of death, but this also takes into account that varius Special Manuevers take up attacks and have consequences when failed.

Note that these attacks assume the use of both primary and off hand attacks using only the weapons provided in the Martial Arts style being used at the time, so having two weapons gives no further bonus. Furthermore, using a weapon that Monk is not proficient in reduces the effectiveness of his style, using the off-hand modifier for all attacks.

When determining damage for each hit, roll the damage for the monk's unarmed attack, roll the damage for any weapon used, take the highest result of the two and add the Monk's Damage Bonus.
Martial Arts: Martial Arts is relatively unchanged, except for those who don't want to use a Proficiency/NW Proficiency system in C&C. To make up for the loss of Proficiency Slots, give the monk a basic style at first level (created by the CK or player) and the choice of two manuevers or weapon proficiencies from that style.

The Monk may learn further manuevers or weapons as he advances in level. He learns one at level 3 and then another one for every three levels after that. He may use one of these 'proficiency slots' to learn an new style instead, if the CK determines that one is available.
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IMHO, AFAIK, YMMV.