Coinage and the encumbrance system...

MithrilKnight · Post by **MithrilKnight** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:14 pm

The answer to my question is probably staring me right in the face somewhere, but I'm not seeing it in C&C books or finding guidance in other RPG tomes:

How much do platinum, gold, silver and copper coins weigh -- and how do they fit into the C&C encumbrance system? I.e., how do you determine how much loot a party can reasonably carry out of the dungeon in a single trip?

(We've always ignored the weight of coins in our past 3.5e play and we weren't realistic about it. Somehow, I'm feeling C&C lends itself to watching this a little more closely.)

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:15 pm

Check under ad hoc encumbrance. It has a method there for determining the weight of objects not listed.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:22 pm

The ad hoc answer I came up with was 10 coins per point of EV in response to a question about how many coins could fit in a sack. Do a search of this sub-forum and I'm sure you'll find the thread.
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Mr.Joel · Post by **Mr.Joel** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:43 pm

Analogizing from nails (small loose metal bits), one pound = 1 EV. Using the one-ounce coin value that's 16 coins = 1 EV. (You could assume troy ounces and about 15 coins = 1 EV if you find that math easier.)

However, in our games, coins are much smaller: more like US dimes than Krugerrands. 50 or even 100 to the pound seems more reasonable. After all, a pound of gold is pretty damn valuable. YMMV.

MithrilKnight · Post by **MithrilKnight** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:54 pm

Boy from 15 to 100 -- pretty wide range and a pretty big difference in what you could haul out of a dungeon, especially if it's a one-time trip and there's no going back. I like to play a gritty game where players might have to choose to leave behind an extra weapon or dungeoneering equipment to take out a haul of gold and gems. (But I want an encumbrance system that can accomodate that and that's as quick and easy as the rest of the C&C game -- I know, wishful thinking on my part. But I see that's been hashed out in other threads and there are some interesting alternatives.)

Back to the original topic: What makes the most sense from a game balance perspective (since it impacts XP if you award it for gold taken out of the dungeon or off foes)? I guess I could go with 50 -- almost right down the middle -- but I want to make sure I've considered the consequences...

Mr.Joel · Post by **Mr.Joel** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:06 pm

MithrilKnight wrote:
Boy from 15 to 100 -- pretty wide range and a pretty big difference in what you could haul out of a dungeon, especially if it's a one-time trip and there's no going back. I like to play a gritty game where players might have to choose to leave behind an extra weapon or dungeoneering equipment to take out a haul of gold and gems. (But I want an encumbrance system that can accomodate that and that's as quick and easy as the rest of the C&C game -- I know, wishful thinking on my part. But I see that's been hashed out in other threads and there are some interesting alternatives.)

Back to the original topic: What makes the most sense from a game balance perspective (since it impacts XP if you award it for gold taken out of the dungeon or off foes)? I guess I could go with 50 -- almost right down the middle -- but I want to make sure I've considered the consequences...

Well, suppose they find a large chest full of gold, after appropriate challenges of course. Capacity is 8 EV. Should that be (8 x 15 =) 120 gp, or 400? I lean toward the latter or even higher.

Either way the full chest weighs 16 EV. And you're always free to say that an ordinary backpack, while it can hold 8 EV, will shred if filled with gold. Carrying the loot can certainly be a nuisance if you want it to be.

There's a brilliant discussion of fantasy coinage options in the old GURPS rulebook, if you have it handy: sidebar, p190, 3rd Ed. Rev.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:48 pm

I go by old roman coins, which are 117 gold coins per pound. They are very close in size to dimes or pennies.

As for EV I don't worry about it. Once they beat the main guy I assume they will get it all back to town somehow, especially when they came from town to get there.

The only time I worry about it is if the treasure is weeks away from the nearest town or city. If thats the case then I will roll for random events and see what kind of creature is determined (I use the Mother of All Encounter Tables for these cases, by Necromancer Games), once I finally roll an appropriate encounter then I decide what happens. IE if they attack the PC's carrying loot to town, or coming back to getting it, or if whats left of the loot is found while they are away and determine if the creature would take anything. IF so how much, and what, if they would have a specific interest.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:45 pm

Treebore wrote:
I go by old roman coins, which are 117 gold coins per pound. They are very close in size to dimes or pennies.

I have seen you write this before, but I am yet to figure out which period of Roman coins you are referring to. The Roman gold coin varied substantially in size and weight. 117 coins to the pound sounds a good deal more like the standard adopted for the medieval gold florin than any Roman coin I am aware of.

As far as this topic goes, 100 gold coins to the pound is straight forward and reasonably historically authentic. In terms of gameplay, and judging by the EV assigned to other 1lb objects, I would be happy enough with 100 coins = 1 EV.
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MithrilKnight · Post by **MithrilKnight** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:10 pm

One-hundred coins equals 1 EV is nice in terms of the math involved. And I'm sure my players won't argue.

I looked at that Gurps sidebar referenced above and it does raise some interesting questions about how I want gold to work in my campaign world. Plentiful or scarce/easy to carry around or a bit more challenging? I guess ultimately the weight of the gold is a matter for a DM to determine based on what kind of campaign world they want to create.

I don't want it to be too difficult to get the stuff back, but I occassionally want to challenge them when they come across something special.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:22 pm

Matthew wrote:
I have seen you write this before, but I am yet to figure out which period of Roman coins you are referring to. The Roman gold coin varied substantially in size and weight. 117 coins to the pound sounds a good deal more like the standard adopted for the medieval gold florin than any Roman coin I am aware of.

As far as this topic goes, 100 gold coins to the pound is straight forward and reasonably historically authentic. In terms of gameplay, and judging by the EV assigned to other 1lb objects, I would be happy enough with 100 coins = 1 EV.

You have "The Best of Dragon" issues? The article that got me started using this is in the silver colored issue, I believe. Issue 4? One of them has it anyways, the article is identifiable in the ToC.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:38 pm

Treebore wrote:
You have "The Best of Dragon" issues? The article that got me started using this is in the silver colored issue, I believe. Issue 4? One of them has it anyways, the article is identifiable in the ToC.

I have access to issues #1-250, and I have checked the contents of Best of Dragon volumes II and IV. Judging from DragonDex, you are likely misremembering the source of your idea. I can find no reference in any of the pertinent articles to 117 Roman coins to the pound. The articles I checked include the following:

"Inflation In D&D???", William Callison, #21(9).

"For the Sake Of Change", David Nalle, #63(67).

"A Player Character and His Money", Lewis Pulsipher, #74(50).

"How Many Coins In a Coffer?", David F. Godwin, #80(9).

"Many Kinds of Money", Davod S. Baker, #114(32).

"Money Isn't Everything", Carl Sargent, #106(18).

"Economics Made Easy", Ralph Marshall, #107(44).

"Just Give Me Money!", Peter Trueman, #167(62).

A type of early Romano-Italian silver coin (the didrachm) weighed around 117 grains, but that is about the only significance for the number 117 I have been able to turn up with regard to Roman coins. At 117 coins to the modern pound, a Roman coin would have to be 59.8 grains (about 4 grams). Roman gold coins (aurei) typically weighed between 6 and 9 grams, which is 50-75 to the modern pound (c. 1/40 to 1/50 of a Roman pound). Smaller denomonations existed, but were introduced as fractions of the aureus.

To put it plainly, 117 to the pound is not based on "old Roman coins".
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:13 am

Ah! You are completely correct! I got my 100 GP per pound rule from the "A PC and his money...it can be parted in many ways" article in Best of Dragon Vol. 4. It was not roman coins, it was dimes. He pointed out there are 219 dimes per pound and I decided that was too many coins for gold, and decided gold would be closer to twice the weight of silver, and then rounded off to 100 per pound for simplicity.

Its on page 55 in the second column, first full paragraph.
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:25 am

Ahah! Right you are, then. That makes a good deal more sense!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:49 am

Matthew wrote:
Ahah! Right you are, then. That makes a good deal more sense!

I'm still trying to figure out where my mind came up with the "117" number though! 219/2= 109.5, not 117. Oh well, guess its just another one of those tricks my old mind plays on me nowadays.
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MithrilKnight · Post by **MithrilKnight** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:20 am

Treebore wrote:
Oh well, guess its just another one of those tricks my old mind plays on me nowadays.

You too, eh? With each new D&D/RPG game edition, I get worse -- oh the passage of time as marked by versions of D&D!

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:26 am

Mr.Joel wrote:
Analogizing from nails (small loose metal bits), one pound = 1 EV. Using the one-ounce coin value that's 16 coins = 1 EV. (You could assume troy ounces and about 15 coins = 1 EV if you find that math easier.)

However, in our games, coins are much smaller: more like US dimes than Krugerrands. 50 or even 100 to the pound seems more reasonable. After all, a pound of gold is pretty damn valuable. YMMV.

To repost a portion of an answer given here...

Traveller wrote:
The RAW has each coin weighing one ounce. While it is not spelled out, a coin has no appreciable EV when carried. If more than 10 are carried at one time, the EV is 1 per 10. Therefore, to answer your question, by the RAW...

100 coins in a large sack.

60 coins in a small sack.

20 coins in a large belt pouch.

10 coins in a small belt pouch.

By no means is my answer the authoritative one, despite using the RAW as its basis. In other words, there is no official answer except for Gideon's (ad hoc encumbrance).
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:30 am

Its also a good idea to go into Travelers downloads page and download his house rules, where he explains a lot of encumbrance issues very well.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:27 am

Traveller wrote:
By no means is my answer the authoritative one, despite using the RAW as its basis. In other words, there is no official answer except for Gideon's (ad hoc encumbrance).

Well ya. In my estimation, there really can't be an 'official' answer beyond the above. The variations of coin sizes and personal preference in this thread alone has proved that.
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:25 am

Wow...it's stuff like this when reality really puts a bummer on my fantasy.

I like the 100/ev for simplicity.

Yet, then there is the Spanish doubloon...doh!

I don't like to bother with too much detail, especially when my players spend more time figuring out what they weigh than how to defeat a monster...or is that coinster?

I had a DM do this in a game I played, and of course no real banks were invented. With no trustworthy institutions I think I buried some treasure under and old house, and some in the dirt somewhere, then of course never went back to spend it.

To me this level of detail get's in the way of the fun.

But for realism sake...a strong box or chest is more sturdy than an old leather backpack any day. I can see two burly types lugging out the chest as a whole, or taking turns carrying it rather than trying to stuff 1000 gold into their pockets anyway. If the chest survived 1000 years hidden in the depths of a wet, dank and musty cavern then it should survive a trek to the surface right?
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:06 pm

Treebore wrote:
Its also a good idea to go into Travelers downloads page and download his house rules, where he explains a lot of encumbrance issues very well.

I explained stuff? I just thought it was me being grouchy because I cannot stand the RAW encumbrance system due to its highly abstract nature (among other things).
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Heavy_Crossbow · Post by **Heavy_Crossbow** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:31 pm

So how many "sovereign" sized coins would there be to an EV? And are there rules in the PHB on electrum? This is all very interesting. I usually play a dwarf rogue, so encumberance never bothered me too much in DnD 3.5. But now that we moved to CnC, adjustments must be made.

And I have another question: A barrel with a diameter of 1 foot and a height of two feet contains one third of its volume with gold. Would the barrel float? I know this seems stupid, but it actually came up in a game not too long ago.
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Mr.Joel · Post by **Mr.Joel** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:52 pm

Heavy_Crossbow wrote:
So how many "sovereign" sized coins would there be to an EV?

Well, as mentioned above, one EV could be 15 or 16 large gold coins of one ounce. But if you mean actual Sovereigns, the modern ones would be about 64 to the EV. The big old originals would be about 30 to the EV. If that's only the approximate size of coin you have in mind, use 50/EV for convenience.

Quote:
A barrel with a diameter of 1 foot and a height of two feet contains one third of its volume with gold. Would the barrel float? I know this seems stupid, but it actually came up in a game not too long ago.

Easy math, no? About 1.5 cu.ft. capacity, so a third of it is 600 lbs of gold. I'm not even going to calculate the weight of the water or consider the purity of the coins; it sinks.

Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:10 am

@ Hvy. Crossbow: By the RAW, regardless of the coin's physical size, each coin is an ounce. There are no rules regarding electrum.

As for the barrel, by the RAW the barrel has a capacity of EV 9 if large, EV 6 if small. Since a coin has no appreciable weight when carried separately, by the RAW, the EV of coins is 1 per 10 (every 10 coins has an EV of 1). Therefore a large barrel can carry 90 coins, a small barrel 60. 1/3rd full is 30 coins for the large barrel, 20 coins for the small. Translating back to ounces, 30 ounces (1lb, 14oz) for the large barrel, 20 ounces (1lb, 4oz) for the small.

Therefore, the barrel floats since the gold isn't heavy enough to offset the buoyancy of the barrel.

@ Mr. Joel: While you are correct that one EV could be equal to 16 coins due to each coin weighing one ounce by the RAW, you're not taking into account the superscripts throughout the Equipment section stating that items carried in bulk (more than 10) have an EV of 1 per 10. These are both the RAW, though there is no hard and fast rule save ad hoc encumbrance in the book regarding this. Lastly, how big is the barrel? Since no actual physical parameters are given for either barrel, large or small, it's difficult to determine whether the barrel will float or sink based upon it being 1/3rd full of coins. Above, I stated that the barrel would float, but that's based upon the assumptions given in the book, as noted above.

This also illustrates just why I scrapped the entire encumbrance system in my game and replaced it with a weight-based one. By tying things to weight, you can actually determine just how heavy a barrel full of wine would be, as well as the size of the barrel (9lbs., 1.111 gallons if large, 6lbs., 0.75 gallons if small). In other words, accounting for the weight of the barrel itself, the large barrel is slightly larger than a gallon of milk, with much thicker sides, and comes in a container far less convenient to carry (unless you're Canadian).
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:06 pm

Not all coins would weigh the same. The original English gold sovereign was quite heavy and weighed half a troy ounce (~16g) so that would be about 30 to the pound. If we stick with English money, then the equivalent of a silver piece would be the old florin (two shillings) that weighed just over 11g. There would be about 40 of these to a pound. Because copper is worth so little compared to gold and silver, a cp would be the heaviest, weighing at least an ounce in order to be worth a tenth of the sp.

Heavy_Crossbow · Post by **Heavy_Crossbow** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:08 pm

It's a floater!

Thanks Traveller. Now my mind is at ease. And thank you, Tenser's and mister Joel. It seems that about 30 to the EV is about right.
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cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:05 pm

Traveller wrote:
@ Hvy. Crossbow: By the RAW, regardless of the coin's physical size, each coin is an ounce. There are no rules regarding electrum.

As for the barrel, by the RAW the barrel has a capacity of EV 9 if large, EV 6 if small. Since a coin has no appreciable weight when carried separately, by the RAW, the EV of coins is 1 per 10 (every 10 coins has an EV of 1). Therefore a large barrel can carry 90 coins, a small barrel 60. 1/3rd full is 30 coins for the large barrel, 20 coins for the small. Translating back to ounces, 30 ounces (1lb, 14oz) for the large barrel, 20 ounces (1lb, 4oz) for the small.

Therefore, the barrel floats since the gold isn't heavy enough to offset the buoyancy of the barrel.

There's a host of assumptions in that. Assuming first that 1 for 10 is appropriate. Nowhere in the RAW is there a note stating that the 1 for 10 thing is a "standard" for dealing with things with no appreciable weight... it's merely used as a note for certain objects. Moreover, where is it stated that a single coin is an ounce? If that's in there, I know *I* didn't put it in.

I really didn't see a need for the RAW to cover this, as everyone has different assumptions on how large (or even how common) coinage is in their settings. I think most people's descriptions here pretty much back this assumption up.

I usually handled coinage as a part of the Ad Hoc system... I'd give a "value" to the haul and then a size of that haul... 1000 Gold might be found in one cubic foot (a small chest probably full of actual gold coins or gems) or in a 20x2x1 pile (probabably mostly full of copper and silver with a few small gems or gold pieces in it). The one cubic foot of 1000 Gold would have an EV of 6 (base 1 EV for it's measurements and a +5 because gold is "very heavy") while the large 1000 GP pile might be closer to 27 EV.

For a more "official" ruling, since that seems necessary:

40 coins = 1 EV

+5 coins per 1 EV if coins are very small (e.g. 1/2 inch diameter or less)

-5 coins per 1 EV if coins are very large (e.g. 2 inch diameter or more)

+5 coins per 1 EV if material is "lightweight"

-5 coins per 1 EV if material is "dense"
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:20 pm

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
Not all coins would weigh the same. The original English gold sovereign was quite heavy and weighed half a troy ounce (~16g) so that would be about 30 to the pound. If we stick with English money, then the equivalent of a silver piece would be the old florin (two shillings) that weighed just over 11g. There would be about 40 of these to a pound. Because copper is worth so little compared to gold and silver, a cp would be the heaviest, weighing at least an ounce in order to be worth a tenth of the sp.

Well, the gold soverign is rather a late period English gold coin, and was preceded by the gold noble (8-9g) and the half noble (4-4.5g), as well as the ill fated gold florin and gold penny. English silver pennies originally weighed more like 1.5g, but later periods saw heavier combinations. The question of coinage size and weight in C&C is answered in the text; there are 16 to the pound (so, each weighs about 28g). In individual games a case can be made, as you say, for pretty much any size and weight of coin.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:21 pm

Oh yeah, well, how about the EV for paper-thin aluminum coins that are rhomboids and have a surface area of 38,000,000 miles? Huh? Huh?!
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Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:22 pm

cheeplives wrote:
There's a host of assumptions in that. Assuming first that 1 for 10 is appropriate. Nowhere in the RAW is there a note stating that the 1 for 10 thing is a "standard" for dealing with things with no appreciable weight... it's merely used as a note for certain objects. Moreover, where is it stated that a single coin is an ounce? If that's in there, I know *I* didn't put it in.

It's in a note on page 40 of the PHB. "All coins equate to about an ounce."
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cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:11 pm

Matthew wrote:
It's in a note on page 40 of the PHB. "All coins equate to about an ounce."

Stupid Troll Lords sneaking stuff in on me! Grrr...
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Coinage and the encumbrance system...

Coinage and the encumbrance system...

Re: Coinage and the encumbrance system...