Troll Lord Games

I have used a call of nature into the bushes as plot devices and I have always been stared at with strange looks.

I don't know about you, but whenever I go camping, it seems a considerable amount of time is spent in the bushes taking care of business. Especially if ANY beer is involved with the trip.

Yet when I run an encounter that led from someone answering the call of nature in the woods, I am looked at as if their character never has bodily functions much less that it ever stinks.
But seriously, do you insert such gritty realism into your games and if so how have you done this and what has been your experience.

Every party sleeps, some actually eat, but do they ever do anything else?

How real should a game go?

Ever ride a horse for a week with no shower?
Spend time on animal care or husbandry?

Catch lice from any medieval inns lately?

Does your party make laundry stops?

What about hair cuts?

Shaving kits?

Femine hygiene?

My point is how far do GM's need to go before a game becomes a grind?

Realism and fantasy seem at odds often.

So my question is just how "real" does your game get?

Where do you draw the line and what has been your experience?
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

My game doesn't get very "real" in that sense. Mostly out of laziness as opposed to any philosophical stance on my part.

The problems with this sort of thing tend to be

1) Adding to book-keeping (if you want to impartial about things). "Okay, it's been four hours since you took a lunch break. Everyone save v. digestion."

2) The subsequent meta-gaming as soon as you bring it up.

GM: "Thog has to take a leak so he's in the woods behind a tree with his sword leaning against another tree."

Players: "Dammit! There's an encounter coming and our tank is "busy"!

3) Resistance from players that you are 'taking control' of their actions. "To heck with THAT! My character never bathes or takes off his armor, even to sleep! He also sleeps with his sword unsheathed in his hand! When one of us has to relieve themselves, the rest of us are all on high alert and form an outward-facing circle around the "inconvenienced" PC to guard him."

EXCEPTION: If a PC has caught a disease, like from giant rats or an otyugh. Then give them a case of the runs, drop the party's travel rate by 1/2 and have him make a CON roll when he's on watch to see if he had ducked behind a bush when the baddies show up.
EDIT: I occasionally give PCs a "lousy" time ( ) when they stay in cheap inns because they are too stingy to pay for a decent place. Also, as far as grooming (haircuts, laundry, etc.), I usually only bring this up in "town" situations where they want to negotiate with "polite society." Then it's usually just a "spend __gp to look presentable." but I'll occasionally award some bonus RP XP for someone taking the initiative on such things.

Heh. GMing, I do occasionally mention how smelly and "travel-stained" the PCs are, but it never makes the players happy. My current Ylaraum Dervish doesn't shave or cut his hair and considers bathing to be something that happens when it rains -- not often, in the badlands. The other players act offended, but I don't see soap or toilet paper on anyone's equipment list...

Appropriate modifiers to charisma- or socially-related tasks for the unwashed. Note that being too clean might actually be a detriment when dealing with some sorts, though that doesn't happen often.

Occasionally smell will play a role in surprise situations. I've had savvy PCs work at getting downwind of their targets.

I'm reminded of a GM in the past who, inspired by H.L. Mencken I suspect, had us all making CON checks during a bout of drinking in the local tavern - not only for who could hold their drink, but who could "hold it" the longest.
Otherwise, it's generally not a level of detail I bother with.
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"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

I don't go with bathroom breaks or Rated R sex. Considering the guys I've played with, that's the LAST place I want to go.
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Dan
http://home.comcast.net/~danbuter/candc.html - my Castles and Crusades webpage

Joe wrote:
Does Nature Ever Call Your PC's???

Well ya, since Nature veneration is the predominant philosophy in my campaign setting the characters will get an occasional visit. She really puts a smile on their faces too...
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

My wife and other female players pay attention more than I do - especially to questions of hygene...

When making up new characters, the purchase of soap was made as automatically as flint & steel and rope.

The bathroom break thing not so much... although my wife's dwarf Flippy in an older game had a problem with incontenance when scared during adventures....

The campaign we just finished off did include romance, marriage, children and domestic tensions between characters, so "who watches the kids?" entered the discussion...

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John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

I do keep track of things like bathing, and hygiene, but only when it matters. My players have had the foresight sometimes to know that when they get to town that it's time to hit the local bathhouse.

As far as taking care of business, no. I like to think that I get fairly detailed, but such minutia is not covered in my games. Some things I take for granted, too. If they hit the inn, then stabling and care for the horses are included, as is a bath or at least access to a wash basin or the like. In that type of downtime, I usually consider armor and weapons are oiled/cleaned unless something happens in-game that damages - then my players usually seek out smiths for repair.

In summation, I don't get that detailed. I try to be as detailed as my players want me to be. As far as the minutia is concerned, I go by the axiom of, "If your players enjoy it, have at it!"

I wrote this with a leaning toward the humor, but I notice some very valid points.

The strongest being, insert as much detail as the players seem to desire.

It has been my experience that if a player running a paladin or knight wishes to tend to their mount every evening, or has an obsession with cleanliness, then that is just good roleplaying and to provide the level of detail for entertainment sake.
But every time I have seen a GM or CK impose what they think of as realism, (Training, money, weight, date of calendar, regular religious observances, hygiene, etc.) it usually floats like a lead bullet, and the metagaming and overreactions are also good points.

I tend to think that a level of common sense and discretion should prevail under these circumstances. But then we are talking about gamers...
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

About as real as we get is they find 'water closets' throughout some dungeons (which some are home to the occassional nasty). If the players make a point of "using the facilities" then I'll generally play along but only so long as it doesn't interfere with the rest of the game.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

I generally try to keep things gritty and realistic in this respect, though I don't track every time each character goes to the loo.

In town, when characters have a room at a nice inn and are throwing money around like water, it's expected that they use bathing facilities and such as available, in order to remain "respectable" in good society. Unless of course they state they are keeping to the cheap side of town and remaining low-class.

When they are out in the wilds, however, baths are only as they take them in-character, and most end up arriving at the city gates stinking and perhaps lice-ridden (or if not, they will be if they go on the cheap and stay in a flophouse or copper-class inn).

Sometimes bodily functions will come into it when the events around them make the event fit; for example, when the party is walking down a trail and only one is surprised, I'll say that that guy was off taking a leak, and has to spend the round stowing his dager before he can draw a blade. Similarly, one character in my current Greyhawk game bought a night with a wench and failed a subsequent Con check with a natural 1. Several days later he noticed a sharp burning sensation when he took care of business in the morning...

And so forth. It's not a pressing issue, but it adds a realistic level of flavor to a campaign. If I were running a "First Person Shooter" it wouldn't even come up, but with a full-blown experiential campaign, it adds to the verisimilitude.

And someone please shoot me now for using the word "verisimilitude"...
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James Mishler

Main Man, Adventure Games Publishing
jamesagp1@gmail.com
http://adventuregamespublishing.blogspot.com/
http://jamesmishler.blogspot.com

No, too much detail for my campaign, it is just one of the things we assume takes place.
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Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

This is just not something I ever got into. It was always just assumed to happen at some point and bathing, haircuts and such are considered factored into inn prices.

Now if there is some sort of epidemic hitting an area and a PC or PC's get it this will be mentioned but a PC this sick is assumed out of the party until he/she gets well enough to travel.
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The Lord of Ravens
My blog

It's never been a factor in my games, but as a roleplaying moment I may (or another player) may make mention of such things.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

It will be glossed over, if that, and then, only if it becomes important for some reason, like, if the party plans to poison a water supply with high-powered laxatives or the bard needs to seduce the princess -- and then, the precise details are just "faded to black" and I skip ahead by saying something like "it was done" and continuing. If a player consistently denies taking any time for such routine activities, then I will do something about it -- ie, make a secret roll to see if a disease has been contracted or whatever, but this rarely happens, and only if it would prove fun in the game.
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Serl's Corner

jamesmishler wrote:
And someone please shoot me now for using the word "verisimilitude"...

I call "DIBS" on shooting Mishler!

Breakdaddy wrote:
I call "DIBS" on shooting Mishler!

Your just jealous cause you can't spell verisimilitude.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

I don't think it's a relevant detail, any more than telling players whether a PC stubbed his toe in the course of a journey, or whether a PC has an itchy nose as he sits in the tavern.

In my game there were magical toilets, water faucets, and bath tubs (as well as a plumbing system to support them) n a "dungeon" that was an underground stronghold. The style of play I've been involved with for thirty years implied 'potty breaks' and the like in the form of "morning ablutions' which included spell memorization and communion time for Magic Users and Clerics.

As a player, I've also used the 'go behind the bushes' ploy for thievery, and other misdirection uses as well as going potty. I also roleplay (to a limited degree) my characters shaving, changing clothes, washing up, etc. I'm currently playing a halfling Knight in Johnathan of White Haven's Crater of Umeshti / Deeper Dark module run. The Knight is a fastidious little guy and is regularly concerned with his grooming.
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Meet me at Stonehenge at Midnight. I'll bring the goat.

I've used hygeine issues to prpel the game forward or to lend ambiance. Steve does as well.

After being in the woods for a while, one begins to stink. Sometimes its atrocious. Here's the thing though. For the most part, it goes unnoticed as familiarity with that factor increases. It only becomes noticable as one enters cleaner environments.

However, I like to throw in "sweaty bodies, irritated by numerous ticks, mosquito bites, buzzing flies etc."

I also had one of Steve's characters attacked while taking a doo once. It was real funny and he almost died.

Its a setting/ambiance issue for the most part so use it to propel the story, otherwise i'd ignore it.

Breakdaddy wrote:
I call "DIBS" on shooting Mishler!

Just wrap him in duct tape, then have your way with him!
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"You don't understand, Beaufingle", said Lungwort cryptically. "You ARE dinner." -- M.M. Moamrath

Joe wrote:
I have used a call of nature into the bushes as plot devices and I have always been stared at with strange looks.

I don't know about you, but whenever I go camping, it seems a considerable amount of time is spent in the bushes taking care of business. Especially if ANY beer is involved with the trip.

Yet when I run an encounter that led from someone answering the call of nature in the woods, I am looked at as if their character never has bodily functions much less that it ever stinks.
But seriously, do you insert such gritty realism into your games and if so how have you done this and what has been your experience.

Every party sleeps, some actually eat, but do they ever do anything else?

When I first read the subject line, my damaged brain translated it as, "Has your computer ever taken a dump?"
Of course, that was Monday afternoon, after a night of not a lot of sleep, getting up relatively early, and traveling about 60 miles to help my brother pick up his new (to him) car. And, before the message board decided to temporarily lock up when I was trying to post a reply. So it goes.

As my friend skerns has said, we've used in-game potty breaks as a front for skulduggery, and have mildly roleplayed morning ablutions. In my campaign, one of the female PCs recently looked forward to spending "several hours soaking in a hot, scented bath" after a week or so of dungeon delving.

But I've never "required" my players to roleplay such things, nor keep track of how many sets of clean underwear they have (or, for that matter, how long the current set has been worn. Ugh.) While it *might* add ambiance of a sort, much of the time it can get in the way of adventuring. I don't usually mention it, but I also don't get upset if the players do.

Adventuring parties *do* sleep (if they don't, eventually they will , and I do require that they set up a watch list. If anything happens, the PCs "on watch" are the first to take note and I give them a short time (usually a 5 or 10 second countdown) to decide what they're going to do. Do they engage and hope that the noise of melee wakes up the rest of the party? Or do they try to kick people awake before the baddies engage the watch crew? Decisions, decisions...
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"You don't understand, Beaufingle", said Lungwort cryptically. "You ARE dinner." -- M.M. Moamrath

Funny, I've been thinking about this lately in terms of adventure design (so I'm not sure if I'm "relieved" to see this thread, or disturbed to know that others are pondering fantasy "roll" playing).

My question is: does it seem odd to you as a player (or CK reading a module prior to running it) if there's no latrine included in a dungeon for a bandit gang, no privy in a castle, etc.? I never worried about it, and most old modules didn't either (just where does all the humanoid scat in the Caves of Chaos go?). But I wonder if there are others for whom dungeons and fortresses seem incomplete without including sanitary facilities.

PS. Lousy puns in honor of the late E. Gary Gygax. One good way to get him participating in threads used to be turning goofy threads like this into pun threads.. but sadly I don't think that will work anymore
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Fantasy Roleplaying Supplements for Basic, Expert, and Advanced games, free for download or print-on-demand and available now! http://www.barrataria.com/

Barrataria wrote:
Funny, I've been thinking about this lately in terms of adventure design (so I'm not sure if I'm "relieved" to see this thread, or disturbed to know that others are pondering fantasy "roll" playing).

My question is: does it seem odd to you as a player (or CK reading a module prior to running it) if there's no latrine included in a dungeon for a bandit gang, no privy in a castle, etc.? I never worried about it, and most old modules didn't either (just where does all the humanoid scat in the Caves of Chaos go?). But I wonder if there are others for whom dungeons and fortresses seem incomplete without including sanitary facilities.

I can't say that I ever paid a lot of attention to it before, but I did notice that Jeff T. must be scatalogically inclined, since he put so many latrines into Castle Zagyg.

Or perhaps that was Gary...

Barrataria wrote:
PS. Lousy puns in honor of the late E. Gary Gygax. One good way to get him participating in threads used to be turning goofy threads like this into pun threads.. but sadly I don't think that will work anymore

"Urine" luck! You've found a soulmate who thinks it's one's "bound" "duty" to insert lousy puns into "mess"ages.

Or at least, questionable quips...


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"You don't understand, Beaufingle", said Lungwort cryptically. "You ARE dinner." -- M.M. Moamrath

I follow along the same lines as Omote. It's never been a factor in my games either, but I throw something in every once in a while as a roleplaying moment for the PCs or sometimes as an embarassing moment for a NPC.
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Lord Aladar

Warden of the Welk Wood

Baron of the Castles & Crusades Society

The Poster formerly known as Alwyn

Senior Gamer - Member of the Senior RPG Tour

"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT - At least not in Yu Gi Oh"
http://www.cncsociety.org/

I am reviving this thread in hope of asking another question I find related.

CK's seem to like to insert their own little elements into the game for various reasons.

Personally I find it a great form of self expression but I also find some of them bog down a game.

I suspect that where much of it comes is time spent as a player. I can find something that I fixate on and think, "When I run I'm gonna fix this or that."

Here are some examples that come to mind.

Training Time...alternative money exchange rates...character career/job...Cost of Living...etc etc etc.

What sort of things do you as a CK insert into your game for the sake of "realism", "detail", "flavor" or whatever?

How do they "add" to the game?
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

I changed the money weight. I just find the concept of 1/10 pound (1.6 oz) coins a joke. Who wants a mule to haul lunch money?

I use a version of the Roman coin system. Coins are 3 grams each [dime sized], or 10 to the troy ounce, and about 150 to the pound.

I also include a list of wages (from laborer to artisan to mercenary to sage, etc), so my players understand that when they kill that ogre and get his chest of 40 gold, that is two months salary for the average smithy.

I changed the money weight. I just find the concept of 1/10 pound (1.6 oz) coins a joke. Who wants a mule to haul lunch money?

I use a version of the Roman coin system. Coins are 3 grams each [dime sized], or 10 to the troy ounce, and about 150 to the pound.

I also include a list of wages (from laborer to artisan to mercenary to sage, etc), so my players understand that when they kill that ogre and get his chest of 40 gold, that is two months salary for the average smithy.

ThrorII wrote:
I changed the money weight. I just find the concept of 1/10 pound (1.6 oz) coins a joke. Who wants a mule to haul lunch money?

My favorite thread returns!

That's my pet peeve. There were a few articles in Dragon and one more recently in the Dragonsfoot zine about this. Someone on another message board tried to convince me that it was somehow "fun" that a mule in AD&D cost THREE POUNDS of gold. But I realize that it's my pet peeve; I know just enough economic history to be really bothered by peasants with pockets full of gold pieces.

On the other hand, I could care less whether a group of men-at-arms are wielding glaives or voulges or glaive-voulges or guisarme-voulges, or if they're wearing chain hauberks or greek mail or whatever else was in the 2nd edition CnC players' handbook... but I know that's a big irritant for some folks. That's why all the NPCs in my modules carry swords or daggers
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Fantasy Roleplaying Supplements for Basic, Expert, and Advanced games, free for download or print-on-demand and available now! http://www.barrataria.com/

I try to add little details to my games all the time to create a sense of... versimilitude! I try to keep certain NPCs on the move by saying that they have relocated, sometimes seasonally. Use troupe of low-level wizards are traveling fairs, seasonal foods, etc, etc, etc.

Like many of you, the coin weight system was changed completely. Additionally, I throw in coinage of different values from different lands, and use exchange rate between realms.

I try to keep on my toes about this, usually throwing in something new like this at least every session or two. While some might consider this minutia, I truly believe that it adds to the depth of the game experience and is a vehicle for roleplaying. This doesn't always happen, and more times than I can could players didn't care about a little nuance. But every once in a while it stokes the flame and players do some interesting things that they might never have thought of by the CK injecting a little interesting bauble from time to time.

And this goes back to the OP. I frequently mention when necessary certain NPCs, have to take care of the call of nature. With little tools like this, sometimes the players catch on and add these little elements to their repertoire of roleplaying.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society