Revising the illusionist

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:09 pm

The mindless undead issue also crosses over into the mindless constructs realm of things.

With no actual occular organs, and this applies to several undead as well, what is granting them the ability of sight? Something in the magic animating them obviously...therein lies the actual question.

How is/was the magic structured to imbue (because that's what it is really) the construct/no occulus undead sight/perception?

The answer to which, as amply demonstrated by arguements made herein this thread will be varied.

In my games, illusions simply will not be seen by them because that's how the magic is structured. Doesn't make the illusionist useless, just makes them work harder against those particular opponents. *shrug* FWIW
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:38 am

And that's a completely valid way to adjudicate it. I was talking about subject today with one of my players (who doesn't visit this board) and I asked him his opinion. He pretty much was of the opinion that undead see illusions the same way they see the PCs, the corridor walls, or the table in the middle of the room. I didn't coax him to agree with my way of thinking and didn't tell him my personal opinion until after he stated his, but I did let him in on the two major opinions of this thread (they can see/perceive illusions for reasons stated in this thread or they cannot see/perceive illusions for reasons stated).

It's nice when the players agree with me.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:12 am

Actually, constructs don't see illusions for a wholly different reason -- they are magical effects and constructs are immune to nearly every spell. It has nothing to do with intelligence, or lack of it, in their case.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:41 am

So, do constructs just not register the illusion or they do, but are unaffected by it?
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:43 am

That's really a Castle Keeper decision. I prefer that they see it, and then ignore it. Sort of like using 3d glasses with one eye closed.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:44 am

Interesting analogy. Thanks for your input/reply!
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:19 pm

This is such a can of worms, though...

"Don't let any men through the door!" commands the Amazon queen to her stone golem.

1) Thaddeus Leaf the Thief tries to sneak past the golem wearing a wig and a dress with padding underneath.

2) Rithgann the Ridiculously High Level Illusionist tries to sneak past the golem with a Veil spell.

According to the rules, then 1) will work but 2) will fail. Hmm.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:33 pm

Yeah -- reality tends to trump the illusory, at least as far as those things which cannot be affected by the latter are concerned. I have no issue with it, but I understand where you're trying to take it. Maybe.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:46 pm

Can something be said about the "interpretation" of the "instructions" of the golems's controller? If the command is not to allow in any men and the man isn't seen, via the Veil - would this be possible. I mean, I can see the golem shugging off a lightning bolt, but if the golem's "radar" is futzed up with a spell, can an illusion work in such a case?

I know that there are just going to be some circumstances where the illusionist is screwed. Is this one of those?
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:29 pm

I always felt that golem's immunity to magic didn't extend to his sight and hearing. It can hear illusory sounds and see illusory images because they don't directly interact with him. That would the ruling my campaign at least.
_________________
In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:29 pm

If that is how the Castle Keeper wants to go with it. There are many ways to deal with it, and the way of having the illusion auto-fail is likely to be the one of least fun for the player, so maybe not the best advice -- me, since the veil affects the caster, and not the golem, I would have the golem fooled by it. Just as I would with an invisibility spell (which, by the way, I do not consider an illusion.)
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:32 pm

I always perceived invisibility as a magical bending of light.
_________________
In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:29 am

Agreed. That's a good way to rule it, actually. If the golem comes in direct interaction with the spell (or spell-like effect), then an autofail would be a good rule. And I also agree with you about the invisibility spell...I wonder if it was one of those spells that fell victim to the "Well, we have to have more illusion spells in the PHB," affliction.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:05 am

The problem for me is how the concept of constructs and mindless undead tends to contradict what actually happens with them. What they ought to be is remotely controlled so they do only as their creator commands. This circumvents the illusion problem, because they will receive their orders and take their action according to whether or not their master believes or disbelieves. However, it never works like that. You always meet skeletons in long-abandoned crypts and they animate and attack when X happens so there usually isn't a master at hand.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:16 am

Well, most undead are not "controlled" or, do not have to be. Golems, as well, are not required to be. So, that, like the illusion, is all in how you want to deal with it.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:42 am

I see your issue, Tenser, and it does make sense. I feel it's the same senses that prevent a skeleton (or other mindless undead) to not run into a dungeon wall, repeatedly, or haplessly fall into a pit that allows them to "see" an illusion. I just think being mindless means they have little to no chance of detecting it's falseness, until it's directly interacted with. YMMV, though.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:45 pm

Once upon a time, as I recall...which I admit could be mistaken, there were a series of articles published regarding golem construction...and one of the spells to be cast/incorporated in the construction of the golem was that of "true sight". If that is correct, that throws a pretty heavy wrench in the 'fool the golem' plans.
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:01 pm

Yeah, but as of yet, C&C does not have any particular rules for the manufacture of golems. So, it reverses back as a "houserule."
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:51 am

1st edition's Monster Manual listed all the spells necessary to make each type of golem but True Sight wasn't used for any of them.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:18 am

The article wasn't in the first edition monster manual. It was a series of 2-5 articles sequentially in Dragon published early, mid 90's that I'm recalling.
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:45 pm

True Sight would definitely allow it to see through illusions. I double checked 3.x, and I didn't see any reference to it there, either. I wonder if it was a rule brought in for 2nd Edition (being an early 90's article).
I can't say that I would argue a CK/GM/DM call that a golem would be immune to an illusion, seeing how constructs are immune to "most magic," and all. However, as a CK I would probably allow an illusion to affect constructs. As soon as there is interaction with the illusion, the golem automatically dismisses it as such (which also follows the magic immunity angle, IMHO).
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:36 pm

I like how our CK for our game handled it yesterday. IF its an illusion directed at the golem (flesh golem in this case) they are immune, but if its something like Venriloquism, used to make a raging flesh golem go chase something that doesn't exist, it can work.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:38 pm

Agreed. That's how I will handle it, too, when the situation arises.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules