Revising the illusionist

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:41 pm

Breakdaddy wrote:
Like how you've convinced yourself you're always right?

PS- Ooooh burned by Breakdaddy!!!1111

*sizzles*

*chuckles* Doesn't take much convincing. Its just an immutable fact of life, like the laws of physics, and some peoples duct tape fetish.
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Heavy_Crossbow · Post by **Heavy_Crossbow** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:57 am

Also, can you use illusions to disguise things like fire or water as something else? For instance, if you were to disguise a fire, as, say, a fountain? Do illusions block light, and do they feel the heat from the fire? I don't think that if they can be damaged by illusions that they'd be able to feel the heat of a fire until they were being engulfed in flames.

Yes, it seems that these questions are a little ridiculous on my part. But an illusionist needs to be as resourceful as possible. The way the entry is on illusions is quite confusing and, as said before, sort of rambling.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:12 am

Heavy_Crossbow wrote:
Also, can you use illusions to disguise things like fire or water as something else? For instance, if you were to disguise a fire, as, say, a fountain? Do illusions block light, and do they feel the heat from the fire? I don't think that if they can be damaged by illusions that they'd be able to feel the heat of a fire until they were being engulfed in flames.

Yes, it seems that these questions are a little ridiculous on my part. But an illusionist needs to be as resourceful as possible. The way the entry is on illusions is quite confusing and, as said before, sort of rambling.

Depends on the level of the illusion. The higher level spells can mask given effects with other false sensory readings.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:08 pm

Yeah, HC, something like permanent image or major image, which includes a thermal component, would definitely be able to mask the heat of the flame. I would assume if the spell includes a thermal aspect, it should be able to lower the thermal aspects of the illusion/area of effect to conform to the image the spell is creating. If I want to create a swimming pool in the middle of the volcano, those who fail their saves should have a nice, cool, refreshing swim...for the few minutes they're alive.
But I think this is a good reason why illusion rules could use a little bit more attention down the road.

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:44 pm

It begs the question, just how much heat or cold can the illusion mask?

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:09 pm

Not really. If the spell description does not set a specific limit of what can be accomplished, then the default is "all". The caveat being that the greater the temp extreme for example, the greater area and detail the illusionist has to account for with his illusion. A campfire being masked takes less 'illusion' to mask that say a pool a lava, the heat of which has fried all vegetation and reduced the ground to baked stone...or if great cold, the ice and 'cicles coating everything around...not to mention the breath clouds when a person exhales.

DETAIL DETAIL DETAIL...

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RLW · Post by **RLW** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:21 pm

This is a welcome alteration to the game. I never considered the Illusionist broken, just somewhat undifferentiated. Any world-builder worth his salt is going to make ample changes and additions to the magic system. How magic works is a large part of defining a fantasy milieu. But having a revised class and clarifications in the rules will be a great asset. "Dreams," incidentally, sounds like an excellent new spell -- I assume this is more than just the "text messaging" ability in the current PHB. I take it this will be the ability to shape and control the dreams of others. Could make for some intriguing scenarios.

It's true: D&D didn't die -- it just got reborn as C&C.

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:24 pm

To me, masking heat and cold doesn't somehow work... illusionists are not anaesthetists. Illusions are positives not negatives, so creating the illusion that lava isn't hot to get someone to walk through it would be like using Silent Image to become invisible by creating the "illusion that I'm not here".

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:47 pm

Illusions are mind affecting powers in my game. The more powerful an illusion, the more likely it is the target will be affected in such a way that, indeed, lava wont be burned, wounds can be healed, and the target can be incinerated by the breath weapon of an illusionary dragon.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:53 pm

Yeah, with Illusionists I go all the way with the idea that the mind is very powerful, and Illusions tap into that.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:15 am

Treebore wrote:
Yeah, with Illusionists I go all the way with the idea that the mind is very powerful, and Illusions tap into that.

Agreed. The old saying, "perception is reality" goes a long way in talking about illusions. AS Perter said, if illusions can make somone believe that they are being incenerated by dragon's breath, then doing the opposite - making a subject believe that the lava is not hot - should not be too difficult a task.

Nelzie · Post by **Nelzie** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:29 pm

I consider Illusionists to be more akin to a bender of Reality than someone that just creates falsehoods.

This puts a change of perspective on how the magic interacts with the world. The changes they make, really are "real", unless the "victims" are able to somehow overcome the magic.

In some ways, this does make them slightly more powerful.

For example, the party just recently faced an Illusionist who was backing up a large group of my game world's Dopplegangers. He twisted reality into creating a large mass of oily, slimy black tentacles tearing up through the ground and then attacking the players.

The players felt the tentacles, they smelled the tentacles, the tasted the slimy ichor as it was flung at them as the tentacles tore up from the ground. Everything went perfectly well...

Until a few rounds into combat when the player of the Cleric suddenly realized that there was no way that this "Summoned" monstrosity should have been able to attack the party, due to the casting of a circle of protection against Evil that the Cleric had cast. That spell specifically forbids summoned creatures from attacking those within the boundary, unless they are attacked first, yet these tentacles flew right across the boundary and attacked the party...

Thus, the Cleric got a save and the permanent illusion spell that was cast dissipated, also removing the resulting damage caused by the tentacles.

Anyway... the change of treating the illusionist as a bender of reality means that the illusionist simply cannot fall prey to the old "Well, he/she is an illusionist, thus everything he/she casts isn't real so I will disbelieve everything!"

So, in my game world, these spell casters actually create the changes that others perceive and only through discovering something that is missing from the new reality or something that breaks with the "hard coded" rules of reality (such as "ignoring" the Circle of Protection mentioned above) can the caster's magic be defeated.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:32 pm

I mentioned it somewhere before, but I almost see the Illusionist as a psionicist of sorts.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:38 pm

Just include the 2e solipsism spell. If illusionists get more powerful, means to resist or defend should also exist.
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CKDad · Post by **CKDad** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:39 pm

Nelzie wrote:
I consider Illusionists to be more akin to a bender of Reality than someone that just creates falsehoods.

This puts a change of perspective on how the magic interacts with the world. The changes they make, really are "real", unless the "victims" are able to somehow overcome the magic.

*snip*

I really, really like this approach. I've been thinking of throwing an illusionist at my players as a change of pace and this reinforces that.

I think it will also help contribute to the "We're not in Kansas anymore" feeling I want to try to evoke.
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:35 pm

Spell diversity?

Do players not realize they can create their own spells?
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:50 pm

Joe wrote:
Spell diversity?

Do players not realize they can create their own spells?

*chuckles* Thats the point I keep driving at with the illusionist. With an illusion spell, once can create any kind of spell or effect. ^_^

Which is not what your talking about, but still. ^_~`
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:59 pm

No, you can't.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:24 pm

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
No, you can't.

Yes, you can, with the applicable illusion spell.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:30 pm

Meaning you have to be at least 7th level to get any of the good ones. That's 6 levels, a very long time by the rules, to, essentially, suck. Yay illusionist!

But, don't get me wrong. I like the class. I just find their spell selection lacking. In many cases, advancing a level is like a "wow, so what, I get even more spells that do what I already did last level." There is little "improvement" in most cases -- ie, charm person, hypnotism, suggestion, blah blah blah or alter self, change self, blah blah blah until the very high levels (basically 4th+ level spells) where the real power comes in, and the barriers are removed. It would be nice if an illusionist had some options at lower levels... and then there's the usual "by the rules illusionist scrolls are next to impossible to find" so they get stuck with the same ones constantly.

Maybe its just my wife moaning about her character (playing an assassin-illusionist) and the lack of real variety... I dunno. Sometimes I agree, and sometimes I just think "its in the situation." But, in every situation, the wizard-druid (me) has been able to do something... so, maybe she has a point.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:48 pm

serleran wrote:
Meaning you have to be at least 7th level to get any of the good ones. That's 6 levels, a very long time by the rules, to, essentially, suck. Yay illusionist!

Actually it can be done earlier than that, 2-5th level, with just a little creativity.

I can think of quite a few devastating effects one can do with a combination of the Darkness spell, Alter Self and Minor Image. All first and 2nd level spells.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:59 pm

Umm, so? I can think of several spell combinations that are very powerful in unison, like cause deafness, sound burst, invisibility and alter size. The point is that the illusionist, by your own argument, is hampered because they're relying on layering effects -- the wizard, cleric and druid don't have to. They can, naturally, but they have powerful spells that remain powerful, even when not added together.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:08 am

serleran wrote:
Umm, so? I can think of several spell combinations that are very powerful in unison, like cause deafness, sound burst, invisibility and alter size. The point is that the illusionist, by your own argument, is hampered because they're relying on layering effects -- the wizard, cleric and druid don't have to. They can, naturally, but they have powerful spells that remain powerful, even when not added together.

And minor image, alone, can pretty well duplicate the effects of most any low level spell, and even some higher level ones within a given area effect. And thats one 2nd level spell.

So if I want to cast an illusion of glowing energy bolts ripping through a target i could.

Or simply gesture and the target creature suddenly appears to corrode like they've been hit by acid.

So... minor image itself can make the illusionist more powerful than higher level mages if applied creatively.

The fact that the wizard can blast around devastating effects as a rebuttal is no more relevant than the fact that a fighter is more effective at fighting than a thief.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:25 am

Quote:
So if I want to cast an illusion of glowing energy bolts ripping through a target i could.

Quote:
Or simply gesture and the target creature suddenly appears to corrode like they've been hit by acid.

You're must be far more lenient with what is allowed because neither effect would work well in my game. Its called minor image... not minor sensation. Hmm... yeah, I think I'll go with that since I think it'd work better, and allow much more flexibility.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:37 am

serleran wrote:
I see now -- you ignore the limitations of the spell. Or, you're just far more lenient with what is allowed because neither effect would work well in my game.

I'm doing neither. Show me where either effect is outside the limitations of the spell?

One can create any illusion or force that does not rely on smell, temperature or texture.

What I described above doesn't do any of those.

And yes, illusions are entirely about stepping out of the box. Hell, the entire C&C game system is.

The illusionist, just like any other class, can realize its full potential by game masters and players working cooperatively to encourage creative solutions to problems. Even if every gray area and permutation isn't spelled out in the infinite pages book it would require.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:48 am

Quote:
Show me where either effect is outside the limitations of the spell?

Fine.

First effect:

Minor image produces an object, creature, or force (not in tandem; its one of these, not a combination or all three.) So, you have the force part. It will even produce a little bit of sound (but not understandable speech.) Where it fails is in the "does not create smell, texture, or temperature." If it is "ripping through a target" then I want to know what kind of force -- is it like a "slimer" from Ghostbusters, or is it something else? I bet either has a textural quality noticeably absent.

The 2nd effect fails at the textural as well -- acid has a definite quality: it would be wet. Actually, I just re-read that. You did not say "hit by acid" but "as if hit by acid," so the victim starts to corrode -- OK, what sort of acid then? There are several varieties -- some might cause the skin to discolor, and others to actually eat flesh. Which did you mean?

This is why it would not work so well -- the more I have to be told what is meant, the less you're pulling it off. Be more specific (this is not directed at you, Peter) since, in my games, if you want to do it, you have to convince me it will work and not make my imagination fill in your blanks.

Quote:
And yes, illusions are entirely about stepping out of the box. Hell, the entire C&C game system is.

No, it is about using what is provided as a framework to explore what is fun for you. The two things might be the same, but if it were entirely about 'stepping out of the box" there would be no rules.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:01 am

serleran wrote:
Minor image produces an object, creature, or force (not in tandem; its one of these, not a combination or all three.) So, you have the force part. It will even produce a little bit of sound (but not understandable speech.) Where it fails is in the "does not create smell, texture, or temperature." If it is "ripping through a target" then I want to know what kind of force -- is it like a "slimer" from Ghostbusters, or is it something else? I bet either has a textural quality noticeably absent.

A pulse of energy which has no texture, smell, or temperature if one doesn't want it too. Perhaps its a negative force that depletes life energy. The point being, its still well within the parameters of the spell

Quote:
The 2nd effect fails at the textural as well -- acid has a definite quality: it would be wet. Actually, I just re-read that. You did not say "hit by acid" but "as if hit by acid," so the victim starts to corrode -- OK, what sort of acid then? There are several varieties -- some might cause the skin to discolor, and others to actually eat flesh. Which did you mean?

No it doesn't. The target could just dissolve. Doesn't have to have any sort of sound, texture or even an acid effect. They could just vanish into air molecules.

Quote:
This is why it would not work so well -- the more I have to be told what is meant, the less you're pulling it off. Be more specific.

Actually, the more i explain, the better I pull it off. But my point has still not been refuted. Minor image is a very effective spell even within its limitations. Ergo, the illusionist class 'does not suck below 7th level'. ^_~`

Quote:
No, it is about using what is provided as a framework to explore what is fun for you.

That is, by definition, stepping out of the box.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:05 am

Believe what you will. I'll let you make your save vs. illusion.
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K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:02 am

I don't know. First the way I see it is unless the caster has seen the real effects of the illusion he is trying to create I'm probably going to give a bonus to save. Secondly unless a player hit with an illusion suggests to me in some manner what the effect might be I'm gonna say nothing happened besides the visual and audial effects. How is the victim gonna know what a magic missle is unless they have seen something like it beforehand? Just my random ramble for the night.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:01 am

K2h2m3 wrote:
I don't know. First the way I see it is unless the caster has seen the real effects of the illusion he is trying to create I'm probably going to give a bonus to save. Secondly unless a player hit with an illusion suggests to me in some manner what the effect might be I'm gonna say nothing happened besides the visual and audial effects. How is the victim gonna know what a magic missle is unless they have seen something like it beforehand? Just my random ramble for the night.

I remember an old Buck Rodgers episode where these people were terribly afraid of a fellow who could make his hands glow red. They believed they would die from his touch. So they did.
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