Revising the illusionist

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:23 pm

I like the shadow theme as well.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:28 pm

Quote:
Isn't one of the reasons why spells such as Chromatic Orb were created and put into Unearthed Arcana by Gary back in the day? To give illusionists some spell ability against things normally unaffected by illusions? Unfortunately, no spells like that are available to the current C&C illusionist in the PHB, particularly at low level.

Welp, research results have indicated that, since this particular spell is not in the SRD, it can't be put into C&C.

Shame that.

Might have to come up with something else.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:03 pm

You responded a heck of a lot more gracefully than I had in mind Tree.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:04 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
Welp, research results have indicated that, since this particular spell is not in the SRD, it can't be put into C&C.

Shame that.

Might have to come up with something else.

Yes, it can. Just not a word for word copy. Besides, I don't think it was in 3E. Then again, they did so many splat books it probably is, somewhere.

You can start by calling it the "Rainbow Orb". Or "Prismatic Orb" and connect it strongly to the "Prismatic" line of spells.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:12 pm

Chromatic sphere...
A stronger version of the old flare cantrip- Flash. Effectively stuns or knocks out opponents. Fits with the prismatic/ Light line of things.

Prismal Ray- in essence, concentrated light through a prism to effect a "laser" type ray doing heat dmg.

Wall of Light- that'll keep them pesky shadows n undaid critters at bay!

for suggestions. (yes Serl...I'll try to write these up too)
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boxcornersdiety · Post by **boxcornersdiety** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:33 pm

Give Illusionists Charm person and Charm monster.

PLEASE!

(and charm person or animal)

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:42 pm

I don't see the need for illusionists to be given more damage delivering capacity because that would be treading on the wizards' toes, but I agree that there are quite a few monsters that the class is utterly useless against (constructs aren't bad for illusionists specifically, since they nerf everybody who isn't about charging right in with a weapon) and they are also deficient in areas where all other spell casters, not just wizards, have ability such as divinations/detections and dispelling - with the former fitting in well with the class' concept.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:53 pm

I just think Serl has a point. No class should be completely useless against any given creature type. Giving the illusionist one or two 'real' damage type or 'control' type spells per level isn't going to infringe on the wizard's territory much at all. It will simply render them less than useless in those instances.

Against any opponent with intelligence, an illusionist is typically more powerful than a wizard simply because the imagination and creativity of the caster is their only limit within the given spell effect parameters. This is mitigated in part by the fact that any belief in death or catastrophic damage to those influenced by the illusion can be effectively reversed upon 'awakening'. Hence the contention that a truely effective illusion- and/or -ist relies on misdirection more-so than trying for direct effect and manipulates their victim(s) into a position of true and real harm/ danger.
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Hawkwinter · Post by **Hawkwinter** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:41 am

Yeah, I don't think we need to give the Illusionist an arsenal, but one or two balancing spells in the nature of the class should be fine.

I like:

First Level: Shadow Orb 1d4+1pt/lvl to a mximum of +12. At 7th the spell has the added ability to possibly paralyze the victim unless a save vs. wis is made.

Second Level: Shadow Sphere...analagous to Flaming Sphere but deals shadow damage instead of fire.

Third Level: Shadow Steed...same as the Phantasmal Steed from UA.

I think these three spells allow for some balancing of the range of abilities each class has without mimicing the ability or infringing on the speciality of the class.

Thoughts?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:06 am

Hawkwinter wrote:
Thoughts?

Good ideas.
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dunbruha · Post by **dunbruha** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:56 pm

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
... but I agree that there are quite a few monsters that the class is utterly useless against ...

Why are constructs, plant creatures, undead, etc necessarily immune to illusions? The spell description for Major Image states that "Creatures who view the illusion believe it..." Therefore, any creature with visual ability should be affected. This goes along with my opinion that an illusion is an "object". Based on this, unintelligent creatures like constructs would be even more susceptible to an illusion--they have no brain to deduce that what they see might not actually be real. And undead (the unintelligent ones anyway) would be the same.

I guess this depends on your interpretation of how an illusion works--is it a magical object, whose properties are such that it seems real (my view), or is it a "sending" of some sort to the brain of the target. Either one could work. It would be useful to have some guidelines for the ways that illusionw work, either in the new PHB, or in the CKG.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:24 pm

For one...they have no free will or intelligence typically. Ergo, are unable to believe, dream, or imagine...key components to the Id being taken in by illusion.

Also, most of these have no actual occular organs and are able to sense the presence of intruders/ victims by means other than sight. Simply because they may have eyes, does not mean they function in that capacity. The reverse arguement can be made, but in my experience much more weakly supported.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:50 pm

There are also some creatures (upcoming) which specifically state they are blind and are immune to all illusions based on visual cues. Also, anything without a brain is, perforce, unable to perceive... even if the rules don't explicitly state it. However, I wonder how a plant "sees" anything...
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Hawkwinter · Post by **Hawkwinter** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:04 pm

serleran wrote:
There are also some creatures (upcoming) which specifically state they are blind and are immune to all illusions based on visual cues. Also, anything without a brain is, perforce, unable to perceive... even if the rules don't explicitly state it. However, I wonder how a plant "sees" anything...

Plants have photoreceptors, same as us....they simply respond to a more basic system of chemical reactions to this stimuli. We perceive a series of photo/light images, produce a series of chemical reactions to it, and our brain interprets those...same with plants sans the higher brain. A plant will respond to light by moving towrds it, or away should the level be too hot for its survival. Its simply a matter of mimicing the right tactile response. Feeling of heat on a plants photreceptors?..it will move away or react appropriately. Darkness in the right spot on a plant? It will still be blind as it most likely uses changes in light density to move or react.

I don't think an Illusionist is ever useless against any type of enemy, simply more limited than his counterpart the wizard against some, but more effective against others. An Illusionist will always have the 'right" elemental attack against susceptible creatures..while the Wizard may not be so lucky...

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:20 pm

Quote:
A plant will respond to light by moving towrds it, or away should the level be too hot for its survival. Its simply a matter of mimicing the right tactile response. Feeling of heat on a plants photreceptors?..it will move away or react appropriately. Darkness in the right spot on a plant? It will still be blind as it most likely uses changes in light density to move or react.

Sure, if these happen to be real and perceptible. A plant cannot process illusory sensations because there is nothing to "trick." Illusions require a brain to be convinced, not purely physical reactions -- if the brain perceives, the body follows. It does not work the other way.
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Hawkwinter · Post by **Hawkwinter** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:34 pm

serleran wrote:
Sure, if these happen to be real and perceptible. A plant cannot process illusory sensations because there is nothing to "trick." Illusions require a brain to be convinced, not purely physical reactions -- if the brain perceives, the body follows. It does not work the other way.

Actually that goes into the chicken or the egg argument of perception. Until the brain receives an outside stimulus it cannot "perceive" it. Thus it is the response of the body to an outside stimulus that allows the brain to perceive "reality". If the action can cause harm to the system, higher brain functions can actually be over-rode and involuntary muscular action produced, to avoid this harm. This type of Medulla/Neuron action is very similar to plant inter-cellular communication, so they can respond to stimulus. The spell Minor Image states it can "create" minor sounds, so some sonic waves can be made. These can have a reaction to some plants which have been shown to react to humingbird wing sounds and produce more nectar...that is stimulus reaction. Spiders could react to this if the sound were similar to a Spider Wasp buzzing, or bees if the sound were useless droning as this would be like "white noise" to their main form of communication. Yet no of these creatures would count as "intelligent" in terms of spell mechanics.

Illusionist spells should not be thought to be simply fictional material...they are more a function of shadow stuff being made to be more than it is...a minor manipulation of reality. A shadow puppet on the wall is nothing more than refracted and blocked light...yet the pattern can make you "see" a bunny when there is no bunny there.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:44 pm

An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation. While illusions distort reality, they are generally shared by most people.[1] Illusions may occur with more of the human senses than vision, but visual illusions, optical illusions, are the most well known and understood. The emphasis on visual illusions occurs because vision often dominates the other senses. For example, individuals watching a ventriloquist will perceive the voice is coming from the dummy since they are able to see the dummy mouth the words.[2] Some illusions are based on general assumptions the brain makes during perception. These assumptions are made using organizational principles, like Gestalt, an individual's ability of depth perception and motion perception, and perceptual constancy. Other illusions occur because of biological sensory structures within the human body or conditions outside of the body within ones physical environment.

The term illusion refers to a specific form of sensory distortion. Unlike a hallucination, which is a distortion in the absence of a stimulus, an illusion describes a misinterpretation of a true sensation. For example, hearing voices regardless of the environment would be a hallucination, whereas hearing voices in the sound of running water (or other auditory source) would be an illusion.

Ergo...without a brain which essentially fills in the blanks...illusion is useless. Plants, oozes, non-intelligent undead may percieve some of the effects but lack the wherewithal to be deceived by the purported distortion. You're trying to apply physics to psychology...and it doesn't work that way.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:48 pm

And now we're just going in further circles: producing a sonic wave is not an illusion (in fact, the spell does not specify if it produces a real sound [if it did, would it not be audible to everyone in a certain range, or is the target the only one who receives it?,] or one that is merely perceived as such.. a distinction that would make either argument) -- it is producing something substantial and real. Also, by your own statement, "some plants" not "all plants." Tell me, please, how an assassin vine is going to respond to a "buzz." It will probably consider it food -- that is not exactly the epitome of effective use when trying to get it to flee.

Illusionist spells are, at their core, manipulation of the perception of reality -- they modify reality at the highest of spell levels, where they can, and do, actually produce semi-real things (unless, of course, the spell itself says otherwise.) For example, hallucinatory terrain does not actually create forests and a river -- it makes you think it is there. But, demi-shadow magic does create a tree and a river, if only partially.

Therefore, some explanation on how illusions work, what they do, would be very welcome.

But, I do like the open-extendedness of the way it is now; in my games, with the right application of an illusion, they are never useless -- but, that can be very hard to explain to someone, like my wife (who is playing one) why and how when they have nothing to base or compare.
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Hawkwinter · Post by **Hawkwinter** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:05 pm

Yeah, it's always hard to explain exactly how an illusion can be incorporated into a campaign or rule effects. I don not however see Illusions being useless on creatures that "lack a brain" as this supposes a lot of anthropomorphic views on what consitutes a brain. An illusion, in my campaigns, doesn't have to be an image made in the field of battle that everyone can see or react to. If something reacts to a stimulus, why does it have to be only something that would fool us and not them to be counted as an illusion? Every living aspect has an instinct for survival, whether this is to react negatively and flee or positively and attack food. I see no reason why if Illusions are producing semi-realistic impacts on the area that they cannot affect living beings if the situation is described or role-played out.

Ser: The effect of the spell Minor Image describes it as a 40 foot cube, so yes the sound would be perceptable by anyone in that area.

Goog: I do think my descriptions and usage of illusions are limited to living creatures that would have a base primal instinct at preservation. Undead? Yeah, no effetcs from illusions as they have no living neural fabric or chemical response, and no instinct for survival. Now, higher undead? Vampires, Liches? I do make some allowances for them unless its stated in the rules they are unaffected.

Ser: The motivation of the spells I described in affecting plants may not always be to get them to run, but if you can influence the atacks of the assassin vine away from where the characters actually are...that's a great advantage...I usually give the creature a -4 when "distracted" by the outside influence.

dunbruha · Post by **dunbruha** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:30 pm

Go0gleplex wrote:
An illusion is a distortion of the senses.

I would agree with this.

Go0gleplex wrote:
The term illusion refers to a specific form of sensory distortion. Unlike a hallucination, which is a distortion in the absence of a stimulus, an illusion describes a misinterpretation of a true sensation. For example, hearing voices regardless of the environment would be a hallucination, whereas hearing voices in the sound of running water (or other auditory source) would be an illusion.

Yes.

Go0gleplex wrote:
Ergo...without a brain which essentially fills in the blanks...illusion is useless. Plants, oozes, non-intelligent undead may percieve some of the effects but lack the wherewithal to be deceived by the purported distortion.

Not necessarily. One way of considering illusions is that they are sensory-affecting spells, rather than mind-affecting spells. The illusionist spell affects the sensory organs (whatever they are) of a creature so that it perceives light, sound, heat, odor, or tactile sensations. A good spell can actually mimic the sensations of the real thing. So any creature that can sense the environment (which would be almost all creatures that the characters interact with) would be affected. Those creatures with intelligence, however, could decide that this stimulus is not real, and disbelieve it.

dunbruha · Post by **dunbruha** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:36 pm

Hawkwinter wrote:
Yeah, it's always hard to explain exactly how an illusion can be incorporated into a campaign or rule effects. I don not however see Illusions being useless on creatures that "lack a brain" as this supposes a lot of anthropomorphic views on what consitutes a brain. An illusion, in my campaigns, doesn't have to be an image made in the field of battle that everyone can see or react to. If something reacts to a stimulus, why does it have to be only something that would fool us and not them to be counted as an illusion? Every living aspect has an instinct for survival, whether this is to react negatively and flee or positively and attack food. I see no reason why if Illusions are producing semi-realistic impacts on the area that they cannot affect living beings if the situation is described or role-played out.

Exactly.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:37 pm

I agree that Illusions affect the true senses, otherwise the spell description wouldn't mention them.

As for plants, undead, etc... yes, they may still have their senses effected by Illusions, but my question would be, "Is the Illusionist able to have the illusions affect them in a way that is meaningful to them in a predictable way?"
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dunbruha · Post by **dunbruha** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:55 pm

Treebore wrote:
I agree that Illusions affect the true senses, otherwise the spell description wouldn't mention them.

As for plants, undead, etc... yes, they may still have their senses effected by Illusions, but my question would be, "Is the Illusionist able to have the illusions affect them in a way that is meaningful to them in a predictable way?"

If a character is standing in front of a zombie, and the character moves to the side, then the zombie senses the movement. I suppose you could come up with some sort of "undead sensory mechanism", but why? It is so simple to say that it sees the movement.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:58 pm

An illusionist uses magic to toy with the minds of his enemies, convincing them to see and hear things where they are notand to ignore things that should be right in front of their faces. Illusion spells turn their enemies senses against them, causing their eyes and ears to deceive them and tricking them into performing actions they normally would not. Some illusions are so realistic that they can convince a foes mind to make the illusion real, causing trauma and even death.

From Skip Williams:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a

and more if you REALLY want to get picky about it all...

Illusion

Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.

Figment

A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

Glamer

A glamer spell changes a subjects sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

Pattern

Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.

Phantasm

A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression. (Its all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see.) Third parties viewing or studying the scene dont notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.

Shadow

A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isnt real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

(the above from other resources wherein this exact same arguement has been presented time and time again over the last decade with pretty much the same conclusions.)
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Hawkwinter · Post by **Hawkwinter** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:36 am

I'm sorry....what conclusion did we reach with Skip's research? I'm a bit confused as to where this discussion has ended up...sorry, I had a long day at work.

As the Illusionist uses all aspects of the magics discussed above, I can see where all of the effects we have discussed could work on any sentient/living creature. I would still have some issues with constructs and mindless undead, but the shadow portion of the spells can alleviate that conundrum I would think.

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 6:52 pm

dunbruha wrote:
Why are constructs, plant creatures, undead, etc necessarily immune to illusions?

I don't know: I'm only reporting what seems to be the consenus.

dunbruha · Post by **dunbruha** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:05 pm

Go0gleplex wrote:
An illusionist uses magic to toy with the minds of his enemies, convincing them to see and hear things where they are notand to ignore things that should be right in front of their faces. Illusion spells turn their enemies senses against them, causing their eyes and ears to deceive them and tricking them into performing actions they normally would not. Some illusions are so realistic that they can convince a foes mind to make the illusion real, causing trauma and even death.

I guess I have a broader definition of "mind". As I see it, constructs, undead, etc all respond to physical sensations in their environemnt. If you are fighting a golem, and you move to the side, it will follow you to continue the attack. Therefore it is perceiving the environment, and making some decision of how to react. This to me is evidence of a mind. It may not be very similar to a human mind, but it is a mind nevertheless, and wold be susceptible to being fooled by an illusion.

And certainly a vampire or a lich has a mind! Why should they be immune to illusions? (of course, a lich's high intelligence would make it pretty likely to disbelieve...)

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 8:51 pm

I don't necessarily think such creatures are immune, I think its more that Illusionists simply do not know hos such minds/perceptions work, and therefore do not know how to make their illusions effective against them.

I do agree liches and vampires should not be immune. Their minds may be "dead", but they still perceive and process those perceptions in much the same way they did when alive.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:48 pm

liches and vampires, wights, ghasts, ghosts, and spectres are intelligent undead by description.

With your arguement that constructs have a mind, then by that measure skeletons and zombies also should be affected. However, they are in fact immune as are constructs. Constructs follow orders...they do not feel pain, anxiety or any such things. Their perception as it is, is the result of the process that created them. Their perception of foes are essentially belong...does not belong within the scope of their programming. The magical equivalent of robotics.

Oozes and plants are immune to the visual and auditory components of illusion. A spell with some sort of tactile or thermal component that can act upon their sense of touch, tremorsense might have a chance of affecting them.

I don't know if Gary had this conversation with the Trolls...but he sure as heck had it with folks through Dragon Mag. back in the early 80's...reiterated through Sage Advice in the 90's.
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:06 am

I see constructs and mindless undead more like computer programs than being possessed of a mind as such. In the past I've said that mindless undead are fooled by whatever fools their creator, but of course, it's common to meet skeletons in dungeons when their creator is not present (and perhaps has been dead for centuries) so how are they handled? The doctrine that undead, particularly intelligent undead, are immune to illusions arises from some idea that they don't really "see" as such, but somehow perceive in an otherworldly way, like Tolkien's Ringwraiths or Peter Schuyler Miller's vampire in Over the River. And there's the Invisibility to Undead spell that's been around a long time, which some people take to mean that undead see through normal invisibility.

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Revising the illusionist

please for the love of god