Playing levels 1-20 [Shackled City] LONG

[Laslo Tremaine]

So I'm getting ready to run the Shackled City adventure path using C&C, and I'm a bit concerned with the the various experience progression charts. As you will see if you can manage to make it all the way through this post, I have been over-thinking the issue quite a bit...

The Shackled City book gives guidelines for what level the characters should be at the start of each chapter (1st level at chapter one, 3rd level at chapter 2, etc). My normal method for allocating exp is to just let the player's know when they can level their characters. This method works fine for D&D 3.5, but with the variation in experience progression in C&C I don't think I can do that.

My solution to this problem is to figure out what the average number of XP it takes for all classes to advance to each level. After spending a bit of time with Excel, I came up with the following info...

The average XP needed to level is as follows (for the first 5 levels).

Lvl 1 - 0xp

Lvl 2 - 2,078xp

Lvl 3 - 4,109xp

Lvl 4 - 8,863xp

Lvl 5 - 18,047xp

This way I can just say that sometime in the middle of chapter one, every character gets 2,078xp. Then at the end of chapter one, everyone gets another 2,031xp for a total of 4,109xp. This sounds like it will work up until about 5th level, but then as the class levels start to drift apart, it looks like it might be a bit problematic.

The problem becomes most pronounced at about 10th level where the Rogue and the Paladin illustrate the issue best. At the average 10th level (469,232xp) the Rogue is 12th level and the Paladin is 9th. If I just awarded points once a level the at 9th, the Rouge is 10th level and then pops up two levels at the 10th level XP award.

My solution to this problem is to divide the xp per level by 4 and then just spread it out a bit. That way I can award xp eight times over the course of the first chapter (for example), and things will even out.

Now that is all well and good.

My next problem comes in post level 12 where each class gets a set amount of experience per level (instead of the doubling that has been happening until now.

Once again, the Rogue and the Paladin best show the problem. At average 15th level (1,509,616xp) the Rogue is 20th level and the Paladin is 12th level. Now I'm getting a bit concerned. It gets even worse at 20th level, where the Rogue is 28th level and the Paladin is 16th.

It's interesting to note that at these levels the Rogue has (on average) 71hp and a BtH of +9 where the Paladin has 79hp and a BtH of +15. The scary part comes with Ability Checks and Saving throws where the Rogue has a +12 to rolls over the Paladin. At 20th level the average Saving Throw difficulty is 20 + (12 or 18) for a 32 or a 38. Even for a non-prime save, the Rogue still is adding 28 to his roll and will have a 50% chance of making it. The poor Paladin, on the other hand, is only adding 16 to his roll and will average a 26. He only has a 20% chance of making a roll on a prime stat, and no chance at all on a non-prime.

My first solution to this problem is to reign in the Rogue. Below is a list of where all the classes stand at an average level of 20, with the rules as they stand.

18 - Fighter

19 - Ranger
28 - Rogue

25 - Assassin

20 - Barbarian

17 - Monk

18 - Wizard

22 - Illusionist

18 - Cleric

22 - Druid

21 - Knight
16 - Paladin

21 - Bard

To bring things a bit more in line with each other, I can make the lowest experience requirement (post level 12) 200,000xp. Just making this change makes 20th level look like this.... (I've bolded the classes the change the most).

18 - Fighter

19 - Ranger
23 - Rogue

22 - Assassin

20 - Barbarian

17 - Monk

18 - Wizard
20 - Illusionist
19 - Cleric

22 - Druid
20 - Knight

16 - Paladin

21 - Bard

This drops the Rogue from 29th to 23rd level making him much more palatable to me.

I might still reduce the Paladin's XP requirement so that he ends up at 17th level (maybe by giving him the Monks XP chart.

Now, like I said at the very start of this post, I know that I am over thinking this, but if I am to run Shackled City from start to finish, I think these things need to be addressed.

So. Just how crazy am I?

[johns]

I think what you worked out is okay - in fact, I might steal it when I run Age of Worms in a few weeks/months/whatever.

I'm currently running a C&C party through Rappan Athuk from Necromancer Games as an alternate to the main campaign we're involved in - in other words, when only a few people can show up, I run Rappan Athuk. Since it's very informal, the characters are all pregenerated - when one dies, a new one pops in to take his place. Since there is a need in Rappan Athuk for characters to gradually improve, and I don't want to be bothered with figuring out XP, I'm just tracking encounters. The 3.5 standard is to level up every 12 encounters. So, I'm leveling a PC every 12 encounters, except for assassins, rogues and bards, who level every 9 encounters, and paladins and multi-classes, who level every 15 encounters. It's not precise, but close enough for my purposes.

[Maliki]

The Shackled City, looks to be a nice campaign. I had thought about converting myself at one time,
_________________
Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

[Treebore]

I think what your planning to do will work. I'm sure you'll end up tweaking some stuff as more things come clear to you.

Another thing you may want to do is look at the house rules Seskis has posted and look at the one adding to saves/checks. Maybe incorporating that in some way may help with your areas of concern.

Here is something else to consider. Class balance in 3E is largely a myth. A widely believed myth, but still false.

So why worry about it with C&C? Keep everyone at the same xp's. Just tell them that if you ever think that is becoming too unfair to the "weaker" classes you reserve the right to dump a bunch of xp's on them and level them up to where you think it would be fair again.

Or, maybe a 16th level Paladin and 28th level thief really are balanced, just not in straight terms of BtH and HP. The Paladins ability to heal is pretty awesome at those levels. Paladins AC probably is too.

Maybe adapt an old 1E rule where the magical armor bonus also applies to certain saves. Or was that in 2E? Or both?

I'm not sure. I just know you have put yourself into the middle of a big question, and without having a thorough experience of C&C at every level, your just going to have to go with your best guess and hope it works well.

[rabindranath72]

Treebore wrote:
I think what your planning to do will work. I'm sure you'll end up tweaking some stuff as more things come clear to you.

Another thing you may want to do is look at the house rules Seskis has posted and look at the one adding to saves/checks. Maybe incorporating that in some way may help with your areas of concern.

Here is something else to consider. Class balance in 3E is largely a myth. A widely believed myth, but still false.

So why worry about it with C&C? Keep everyone at the same xp's. Just tell them that if you ever think that is becoming too unfair to the "weaker" classes you reserve the right to dump a bunch of xp's on them and level them up to where you think it would be fair again.

Or, maybe a 16th level Paladin and 28th level thief really are balanced, just not in straight terms of BtH and HP. The Paladins ability to heal is pretty awesome at those levels. Paladins AC probably is too.

Maybe adapt an old 1E rule where the magical armor bonus also applies to certain saves. Or was that in 2E? Or both?

I'm not sure. I just know you have put yourself into the middle of a big question, and without having a thorough experience of C&C at every level, your just going to have to go with your best guess and hope it works well.

This is my thought. 3e is not balanced despite what they say.

I handled with something similar in the past, and the solution has been quite simple, as Treebore suggests: give the same amount of XPs to everyone (of course if they contributed equally to the game!)

The way C&C is built, it is automatically "equalized". You cannot compare two classes by levels, since they are NOT equivalent. You must look at XPs, and these you can control easily. It will come all natural when you assign XPs for creatures, items, role-playing etc.

[rabindranath72]

johns wrote:
I think what you worked out is okay - in fact, I might steal it when I run Age of Worms in a few weeks/months/whatever.

I'm currently running a C&C party through Rappan Athuk from Necromancer Games as an alternate to the main campaign we're involved in - in other words, when only a few people can show up, I run Rappan Athuk. Since it's very informal, the characters are all pregenerated - when one dies, a new one pops in to take his place. Since there is a need in Rappan Athuk for characters to gradually improve, and I don't want to be bothered with figuring out XP, I'm just tracking encounters. The 3.5 standard is to level up every 12 encounters. So, I'm leveling a PC every 12 encounters, except for assassins, rogues and bards, who level every 9 encounters, and paladins and multi-classes, who level every 15 encounters. It's not precise, but close enough for my purposes.

Yes, this can work since you have nonuniform leveling. Trying to keep all characters at the same level like in 3e is a gross error.