Clerics and Domains?

[Dragonhelm]

I've been debating some on whether or not to use domains with the cleric. On the one hand, it's simple enough as it is now. On the other hand, though, domains hearken back to the 2e days where the types of spells you casted were based on your deity.

I like the idea of customization, but I wonder if this is a level of complexity that I don't need. Any thoughts?
_________________
Trampas Whiteman
---DragonHelm--->
Dragonlance Nexus

[Treebore]

Simplicity is relevant. If you think it will be easy enough for you to deal with, and add what you want added to your game, do it.

[serleran]

I would probably not implement a full-on Domain system, as like, giving different granted powers and whatnot, unless I were to actually go the whole way and make each cleric type different. For example, a cleric that can berserk and gets attack spells should probably have a different XP rate than one who can only cast healing spells. So, with that in mind, I would select a few spells, and add them to the list, or make them slightly lower level, but nothing extreme like turning heal into a 3rd level spell.

[babbage]

In my Hrn campaign, there are ten deities each with a favoured weapon or, in the case of one, no favoured weapon. If anyone plays a cleric they choose a deity and plays in the style of the religion adopted. For example, Sarajin is a viking-like war god who favours his battle axe Fakang, so any clerics of Sarajin would be able to use a battle axe and in all likelihood would be 'up front and personal'.

Added to this are a list of 'invocations'. These are spells unique to a particular deity, but act normally in all other ways. I grant clerics an additional spell per spell level, which must be an invocation. The spread of invocations is uneven, so I allow clerics to fill slots with lower level invocations.

It's worked out fine so far, and gives just enough 'feel' to make them all distinct. Having said that, most of it is down to the player's style. Playing a cleric of Peoni (a pacifist) is entirely different to playing a cleric of Sarajin yet there are no rules to say so. Played correctly would award extra experience points in my opinion. Played incorrectly would inevitably lead to them being excommunicated.
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[rabindranath72]

You may want to give a look at what I did in the Dragonlance sourcebook. Basically, all clerics are able to cast any kind of spells (gods are that powerful!), but what a cleric will really use depends on the portfolio of the deity. So, a cleric of Mishakal, goddess of healing, will very rarely use spells that harm, unless the circumstances warrant it.

Likewise, a cleric of Takhisis will heal someone only if it benefits him and furthers the aim of the goddess.

So, it is mostly left to roleplaying and CK fiat which spells a cleric will choose, and this can be done without the hassle of defining spell spheres or domains.

Also, the CK is always free to deny any spells if he feels that the player is not playing his cleric well and according to his beliefs.

[Dragonhelm]

rabindranath72 wrote:
You may want to give a look at what I did in the Dragonlance sourcebook. Basically, all clerics are able to cast any kind of spells (gods are that powerful!), but what a cleric will really use depends on the portfolio of the deity. So, a cleric of Mishakal, goddess of healing, will very rarely use spells that harm, unless the circumstances warrant it.

Likewise, a cleric of Takhisis will heal someone only if it benefits him and furthers the aim of the goddess.

That's sort of the direction I'm leaning towards. The player can define his character through which spells he prepares. If he's a cleric of Mishakal, he has healing spells. And so on and so forth.

Since I use a variant of 3e's skills in my game, I'm giving clerics bonus skills based on their deity. So if they chose Branchala, they'd get bonus Perform skills. Clerics of Paladine would get Knowledge (dragon lore). I find this adds a bit of that customization without being too rules-heavy.

I was thinking about going the Favored Soul route with weapon specialization for the deity's favored weapon, but that started looking too much like the fighter. So I'm going with the idea that the deity's favored weapon is an allowable weapon beyond the normal cleric weapons, which I think is how C&C does it anyway.

I have to say that customizing my game has been a lot of fun.
_________________
Trampas Whiteman
---DragonHelm--->
Dragonlance Nexus

[rabindranath72]

Dragonhelm wrote:
That's sort of the direction I'm leaning towards. The player can define his character through which spells he prepares. If he's a cleric of Mishakal, he has healing spells. And so on and so forth.

Since I use a variant of 3e's skills in my game, I'm giving clerics bonus skills based on their deity. So if they chose Branchala, they'd get bonus Perform skills. Clerics of Paladine would get Knowledge (dragon lore). I find this adds a bit of that customization without being too rules-heavy.

I was thinking about going the Favored Soul route with weapon specialization for the deity's favored weapon, but that started looking too much like the fighter. So I'm going with the idea that the deity's favored weapon is an allowable weapon beyond the normal cleric weapons, which I think is how C&C does it anyway.

I have to say that customizing my game has been a lot of fun.

If you like spontaneous casting, a good thing I have experimented with along the above lines is to give "signature spells", that is each player gets to choose one spell per level, which must satisfy the deity's portfolio. This spell can be cast in place of other memorized spells.

So, a cleric of Mishakal would choose cure light wounds, while a cleric of Paladine might choose bless or light.

This method is nice since it adds diversity, yet retains the basic simplicity of the core system; and it stimulates player's customization of the game.

Cheers,

Antonio

[babbage]

rabindranath72 wrote:
If you like spontaneous casting, a good thing I have experimented with along the above lines is to give "signature spells", that is each player gets to choose one spell per level, which must satisfy the deity's portfolio. This spell can be cast in place of other memorized spells.

So, a cleric of Mishakal would choose cure light wounds, while a cleric of Paladine might choose bless or light.

This method is nice since it adds diversity, yet retains the basic simplicity of the core system; and it stimulates player's customization of the game.

Cheers,

Antonio

That's an excellent idea! I think I will steal it... 8)
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[Laslo Tremaine]

That is, indeed, an excellent idea.

Consider it yoinked!

[moriarty777]

We're just a bunch of thieves I tells ya! *grab*

Moriarty the Red
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[Omote]

I've toyed with the idea of Spell Domains in C&C, but I have yet to fully integrate such a system.

My idea was to keep domains simple. For example, each cleric would be allowed to choose one (or two) Domains based on his diety porfolio. The domains would be simple though.

The healing domain might only provide a +1 to each healing spell that is cast.

The Magic domain might allow for an additional spell slot at the highest level known.

The strength domain might provide X, etc.

The idea I had for domains is to prodvide a simple, singular power instead of complicating the system with additonal spells, additinal casting ability, etc.

.....................................Omote

FPQ
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[Chugosh]

I'd have to go at it from the other end, puting bonusses on various spells especially appropriate to the diety in question based on the deity, not the Cleric, ignoring extra spell slots and such. Also, the listing of the deity would be where the spontaneus casting would go.

Maybe not an educated answer, but I like it.

[BASH MAN]

Take a que from Basic D&D Wrath of the Immortals. It had very simple but nifty rules for clerics of specific dieties.

Most dieties granted use of a normally disallowed weapon, like axe or sword.

Others, allowed the use of spells normally reserved for other classes (usually only 1 such spell, and usually at a higher level than it would be for the original class). For instance, clerics of Odin could cast Magic Missile (it was a 2nd level spell for them). Atzeonotl, the evil god of the shadow elves gave his clerics FIREBALL!

Some of these abilities were less awesome than others. One cleric type had the KEWL power to use daggers! Wow....

Clerics of Thor were really cool. They got the same HD as fighters and a +1 STR bonus! I think they shold have got either/or not both!
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[Treebore]

Personally I have kept some rules from 3E. Such as +1 to heal spells per caster level. The ability to spontaneously cast cure spells by sacrificing a non-cure spell.

The biggest thing about domains was that bonus spell per level. So rather than come up wit a domain system for all the C&C spells I just said you get a bonus spell that fits in with one of your deities domain/portfolio/sphere of influence.

Plus I have always required/allowed clerics to carry/use their deities favored weapon(s) and have proficiency.

For Druids I do the favored weapon, +1 per level to curative type spells and the ability to spontaneously cast summoning spells.

I'm seriously thinking of using the Dawnforge Shaman powers for Druids. They shape change into elementals only, gaining size categories as they go up in level (not that it matters in C&C), and then at 9th level they can change into a treant. Then they have this ritual type spell that they temporarily sacrifice points of their Wisdom that is pretty cool/powerful.

Anyways, that is what I've done in my games.

[seskis281]

Bonus spell based on deity portfolio - I like the idea. I think I'll borrow that one and add to my house rules.

John
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[Geron Raveneye]

Well, seeing that the divine spell list is by far not as overblown as the 3E list, adding Domains like in 3E would broaden the spell selections for clerics (and priest custom classes) a little without ripping it wide open. I was pondering on that kind of addition a few times but haven't found the time to follow the ponder further due to study concerns.

Thing is, for the cleric, it would already be enough to grant them two domains and the power to spontaneously swap a domain spell for a prepared spell. No need to hand them bonus spell slots just because they have domains to choose. About the "domain powers"...they might mean assigning an added XP cost. Or to enforce a closer adherence to the deity's ideals. Or make his spell progression start up one level later (i.e. first spells at 2nd level, like in older D&D).

For a dedicated priest, on the other hand, I'd set up bonus slots for domain spells, and the ability to gain more domains over time if the deity has more than 2 (e.g. for Greater Deities). Also basically make him a wizard with divine spells and no spellbook.

[Maliki]

moriarty777 wrote:
We're just a bunch of thieves I tells ya! *grab*

Moriarty the Red

I think you're right, I'm "stealing this as well.
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[Grom]

I've used domains in place of Turn Undead (mostly because I tend to run campaigns heavy on the human monster, so by default the cleric's special ability was rarely usable), and it has worked just fine.

While off-topic for this thread, I've also been using the variant spell casting system in Green Ronin's Thieve's World, which has slots for known & familiar spells, and a mana system for casting [casting check = 1d20 + caster level + attribute mod >= mana threshold (range of 10-100 for 0-9 level spells)]; there are other rules, including spectacular failure, and the end result is that magic is more versatile, slower and riskier...and both the magic-using types and combat types are pleased with the variants so far.

[Treebore]

I've been looking for a good mana point system for 20 years.

[rabindranath72]

rabindranath72 wrote:
If you like spontaneous casting, a good thing I have experimented with along the above lines is to give "signature spells", that is each player gets to choose one spell per level, which must satisfy the deity's portfolio. This spell can be cast in place of other memorized spells.

So, a cleric of Mishakal would choose cure light wounds, while a cleric of Paladine might choose bless or light.

This method is nice since it adds diversity, yet retains the basic simplicity of the core system; and it stimulates player's customization of the game.

Cheers,

Antonio

I forgot to add: only one version of the signature spell is ever acquired if it is reversible. So, a cleric of Mishakal taking cure light wounds could not reverse it.

This makes the range of available options still larger, and further helps specialize clerics.

Cheers,

Antonio

[Barrataria]

For my homebrew, I developed a very bare-bones list of domain powers. I took the SRD list of domains and distilled each to have one power. I wanted something to differentiate them, but didn't want to have the 2E style of cleric clutter. I submitted it for Crusader but don't think it ever went anywhere, since I never heard anything about it...

BB

[Dragonhelm]

Barrataria wrote:
For my homebrew, I developed a very bare-bones list of domain powers. I took the SRD list of domains and distilled each to have one power. I wanted something to differentiate them, but didn't want to have the 2E style of cleric clutter. I submitted it for Crusader but don't think it ever went anywhere, since I never heard anything about it...

BB

I don't suppose you would send me a copy, would you? E-mail is trampas (at) dragonhelm (dot) net.
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Trampas Whiteman
---DragonHelm--->
Dragonlance Nexus

[rabindranath72]

Dragonhelm wrote:
I don't suppose you would send me a copy, would you? E-mail is trampas (at) dragonhelm (dot) net.

Or better yet post it? I think many would find it interesting!

[naturaltwenty]

For clerics I use conditional magic from the Spells & Magic 2nd ed book along with spheres.

It adds little to no complexity.

Later,

Greg V
www.greghawk.net

[Treebore]

Hmmm. I'll have to pull that out and read through it.

[Omote]

Barrataria wrote:
For my homebrew, I developed a very bare-bones list of domain powers. I took the SRD list of domains and distilled each to have one power. I wanted something to differentiate them, but didn't want to have the 2E style of cleric clutter. I submitted it for Crusader but don't think it ever went anywhere, since I never heard anything about it...

BB

I;ve been struggling to define my Domains in the very same way. Please post here or e-mail if you can. I'm personally stuck on my end and would like to see others ideas like this.

...............................................Omote

FPQ
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[naturaltwenty]

What I really like about conditional magic is that it puts the cleric in the thought mode of "am I casting this spell for the right reasons?" As an example last evening during play a new member joined the group, a 1/2 orc monk.

The dwarven cleric had a real hard time justifying casting healing spells on this unknown member of a race that he (and his deity) have an enmity with.

In one case, the dwarf's deity, would not allow the spell to be cast. The group was not in battle, it was after combat, and the monk had hung back during the combat. In rp'ing terms the monk was unworthy of the blessing of the dwarfs god.

During the next combat though the monk acquitted himself quite well during the melee, took a grievous wound while protecting the druid, and drove off the attacker. He performed so well in fact that even though there exists the racial tension between dwarf and 1/2 orc the healing spell affected the monk as if the dwarf were +4 levels higher (an effect of the conditional magic system).

It's not hard to get the hang of using this variant but I'd definitely suggest laying some guidelines on what constitutes a favorable/unfavorable condition prior to starting play. This way it won't slow you down too much but the CK can expect some bartering with the clerics player when he/she tries to justify some spells. If you have to justify too far and too many times it may be time to question the clerics faith (once again in rp'ing terms).

Later,

Greg V.

Treebore wrote:
Hmmm. I'll have to pull that out and read through it.

[irda ranger]

I really like conditional magic, as naturaltwenty describes. I will probably adopt it.

As for customizing the class in a more rulesy / crunchy way, I would leave the spell list alone and swap out Turn Undead. TU is only appropriate for some gods / faiths. It would be fairly easy to imagine abilities more appropriate to most faiths. Different Clerics would instead have control over demons, or nature spirits (like AU's Greenbond), fire elementals, or the ability to resist / dispel arcane magic (Reorx no likey wizards).

[Barrataria]

Castles & Crusades

Cleric Domains of Barrataria

Introduction: These domain powers are intended to allow for a simple customization of clerical orders, granting a very basic (and low-level) power to the clerics of each order depending on their deitys influence and sphere of control. The Castle Keeper should determine which domain is most suited to each deity in his or her C&C campaign. Each ability is granted at first level; each first level cleric may use the listed ability once per day, and additional uses are possible as higher experience levels are attained. To prevent overpowering clerics and cluttering the C&C campaign with unneeded rules, the CK is advised to limit each sect of clerics to accessing only one domain power.

Air Domain: Using the procedures for controlling undead, the cleric can turn or destroy earth elementals and creatures from the Plane of Earth and can command air elementals and creatures from the Plane of Air. This power can be used by the cleric once per day for every four levels of experience; for example, a 5th level cleric may use this power twice per day.

Animal Domain: The cleric can speak with animals per the spell of the same name once per day per four levels of experience attained.

Chaos Domain: The cleric can cast a protection from law spell once per day per four levels of experience attained.

Death Domain: The cleric may cause the death of any man-sized or smaller creature by touch once per day per four levels of experience attained. The target must save vs. divine magic or be killed instantly. The target saves at +2 if the spell is cast by a cleric of less than 5th level, and saves at +1 if the spell is cast by a cleric of less than 9th level.

Earth Domain: Using the procedures for controlling undead, the cleric can turn or destroy air elementals and creatures from the Plane of Air and can command earth elementals and creatures from the Plane of Earth. This power can be used by the cleric once per day for every four levels of experience attained; for example, a 5th level cleric may use this power twice per day.

Evil Domain: The cleric can cast a protection from good spell once per day per four levels of experience attained.

Fire Domain: Using the procedures for controlling undead, the cleric can turn or destroy water elementals and creatures from the Plane of Water and can command air elementals and creatures from the Plane of Fire. This power can be used by the cleric once per day for every four levels of experience; for example, a 5th level cleric may use this power twice per day.

Good Domain: The cleric can cast a protection from evil spell once per day per four levels of experience attained.

Healing Domain: The cleric can use the lay on hands ability of paladins, curing 1d2 hit points of damage per level of experience attained. The cleric may use the ability once per day per four levels of experience attained.

Knowledge Domain: The cleric may cast a commune spell once per day per four levels of experience attained.

Law Domain: The cleric may cast a protection from chaos spell once per day per four levels of experience attained.

Luck Domain: The cleric may cast an aid spell once per day per four levels of experience attained.

Magic Domain: The cleric can cast a dispel magic spell once per day per four levels of experience attained.

Plant Domain: The cleric can cast s speak with plants spell once per day per four levels of experience attained.

Sun Domain: The cleric can cast a searing light spell once per day per four levels of experience attained. This spell creates a ray of pure sunshine that does 1d3 points of damage per level of experience attained, and double that amount if targeting an undead creature.

Trickery Domain: The cleric can cast a change self spell once per day per four levels of experience attained.

War Domain: The cleric can cast a spiritual weapon spell once per day per four levels of experience attained.

Water Domain: Using the procedures for controlling undead, the cleric can turn or destroy fire elementals and creatures from the Plane of Fire and can command air elementals and creatures from the Plane of Water. This power can be used by the cleric once per day for every four levels of experience attained; for example, a 5th level cleric may use this power twice per day.

Weather Domain: The cleric can cast a protection from elements spell once per day per four levels of experience attained.

[rabindranath72]

Barrataria,

I really like your approach to handling domains. I have one question: is turn/control undead granted to all clerics as per standard rules?

Cheers,

Antonio