Mithril too good?

[Lord Dynel]

Upon following the Elven Chain & Rogue Abilities thread, I started to take a long, hard look at mithril.

Dang, it's good! Too good, perhaps?

I was thinking about it after reading about elven chain in the aforementioned thread. According to the description of the material in M&T it gives armor a bonus of +5 to it's armor value and to weapons a +5 to hit and damage(!)...if I recall correctly as I don't have the books in front of me at the moment. This is really good. Upon taking a good, hard look at it, I find it a little crazy (for lack of a better word) that mithril weapons are as good as a +5 weapon.

So, I was thinking of changing the rules on properties of mithril.

Mithril - Mithral is a very rare silvery, glistening metal that is lighter than iron but just as hard. Items fashioned from mithril weigh half as much and their EV is reduced by 2, to a minimum of 1. Armor fashioned from mithril are considered expert crafted and gain an additional +1 to their AC. Weapons made of mithril are considered expert craft and have a +2 to weapon and damage.

Any thoughts? Is mithril okay as written and I'm just missing something? Would my "house rule" be acceptable? If a tree falls in the forest...oh wait, getting a little carried away.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[serleran]

Yes, the way it was presented in C&C, it is far too powerful... for my games. Instead, I make it the only material that can be enchanted to a certain power level (that of +5) -- other materials are suitable for imbuing, certainly, but mithril is the only one that can hold a powerful "charge." Sort of like a magical capacitor. Without the magic, that is "raw", it is automatically an expert-level item (that is, could be enchanted), much lighter (not that I use encumbrance so this is practically meaningless), and has greater potential to survive situations where other items would not like the touch of a rust sucker or direct exposure to a disintegrate spell. I do not grant any other bonuses or modifications, and I make it extremely rare.

The C&C way would be acceptable in my games if I reduced the opportunity to find the stuff, and made it a treasure one might only reasonably expect to obtain by killing an age 12 dragon.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[gideon_thorne]

Well, its supposed to be rare, and powerful. If you've got mithril armor in the fantasy equivalent of Walmart for sale, sure, it might go overboard. But if the location of such armor is the product of epic quests, and a given character has earned it, why not?

This is one of those 'big picture' issues. IMHO folks need to stop looking at just the 'bonus' and consider the entire campaign. If characters aren't finding this stuff until they are 15th level or so, thats one thing. If your entire party is walking around in a suit each at first level, well, that might necessitate a look at how the game master is allocating treasure.

All of this depends on the nature of the campaign and what a given group fits.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Lord Dynel]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well, its supposed to be rare, and powerful. If you've got mithril armor in the fantasy equivalent of Walmart for sale, sure, it might go overboard. But if the location of such armor is the product of epic quests, and a given character has earned it, why not?

This is one of those 'big picture' issues. IMHO folks need to stop looking at just the 'bonus' and consider the entire campaign. If characters aren't finding this stuff until they are 15th level or so, thats one thing. If your entire party is walking around in a suit each at first level, well, that might necessitate a look at how the game master is allocating treasure.

All of this depends on the nature of the campaign and what a given group fits.

I see your point, I really do, but at 15th level (for example) wouldn't the characters have +5 weapons just the same?

I understand that it's a rare material and weapons and armor fashioned out of it are even rarer. But powerful to the tune of a +5 weapon? I'm not sure it should be that rare/powerful, IMHO (as always). I think mithril should fill a niche that's a little bit better than an expert quality weapon, but not quite magical in nature. Now, if mithril is valued higher than magic then I see how it could warrant a +5 bonus. I shudder to think of a magical, mithril weapon (or armor).
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Omote]

gideon_thorne wrote:
All of this depends on the nature of the campaign and what a given group fits.

True. At first I thought mithril was overpowered by C&C standards. Than I looked at the campaign world to which I run C&C and just adopted the fact that mithril is extremely rare and powerful. For my C&C games I have decided that mithril is just not as "common" as it might be in D&D.

Also, the idea that Serleran uses is a good one. Perhaps, mithril is the only material that can be enchanted to +5 or better.

For individule campaigns, this could vary. The idea that Lord Dy presented about simply reducing the EV, is just as applicable depending on the campaign.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[gideon_thorne]

Lord Dynel wrote:
I shudder to think of a magical, mithril weapon (or armor).

*grin* Right.. don't bring my elven dual wielding ranger into your game. Noted.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Lord Dynel]

I agree on all points.

I can't recall a game where special material actually mattered. I mean, I've placed mithril or adamantine weapons in a game before and the players didn't really care that much. To them it wasn't magical, so it wasn't that big a deal (I'm speculating). I'd like my players to have a "Holee sh!t! A mithril longsword!" kind of reaction, but I think 3.x didn't place proper value on special material items or not enough value on it. I'm glad C&C does, but it may be a little too much, IMHO. Maybe I'm wrapping my head too much around the massive bonuses C&C is giving mithril weapons and armor that I'm missing something. I do get the rare part, though.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Buttmonkey]

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the problem. If the CK thinks +5 is too much, don't leave mithril lying around where the PCs can find it. Nothing forces the CK to include mithril items in her campaign. The game doesn't break if mithril isn't available.

[Omote]

Try placing special emphasis on items made of rare materials, regardless of bonuses. One of the problems in the latter versions of the D&D game, IMO, is the lack of interest in the ole' +1 sword. If the sword had a name, a history, a unique design, or was even made out of an elusive material, than the sword has much more then a "+1 value." Items of unique materials can play a special part in your game if you allow them. Make the issue of the uniqueness a part of your game. Make the players love the good ole +1 sword (or in the case of this discussion mithril armor).

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Treebore]

I have it where Mithril is enchantable up to +4 and Adamantium is required for +5. I also have them give an additional +4 and +5 (above any enchantments) to saves versus breaking/destruction, including Disjunction. I also have them immune to rust/rust monsters. Mithril reduces EV/weight of an item by 50% and Adamantium does it by 75%.

I also have it to where a master smith (weapons or armor) can fashion such items without the aid of a spell caster, but they are not considered "magical" and will have no other powers.

Mithril is also required if you wish to enchant an item with a 7th or 8th level spell and adamantium is required for 9th, and the items must also be enchanted to +4 or +5, to help explain why they would do so even though they can have such a non magical bonus without a spell caster. Its part of preparing the vessel for such powerful magics.

You can also have lesser powerful magics in Mithril and Adamantium items, but they still have to be magically enchanted to +4 or +5 to prepare them as vessels in the first place.

The logic works for me anyways.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[bighara]

IMC, the PCs (currently around 7th-8th level) recently found some mithril. Not items, just the metal in 1# ingots (20# worth). It's a small fortune, but they want to have goodies made from it. To do this, they've trekked to a remote village where a dwarven smith lives (the only person in the nation who can do the job). He explained that -firstly- his fee was two of the ingots and in order to smelt the metal, regular wood or coal for the forge wouldn't do. This led to the PCs seeking the bones of a dragon-kin or creatures from the elemental plane of fire. In the end, they'll be essentially paying 20,000gp worth of the metal, and doing at least one side-quest to get their items. Not to mention the original owners will still be wondering what happened to the ingots.
18# will not make a suit of chain or plate. They'll end up with something like a couple scimitars (it's an Arabian setting) and a buckler or some such. Granted, it means that the party will have 2-3 items with +5's in their possession, but 1) they aren't magical, so they won't affect creatures who are only hit be magical weapons/spells, and 2) they've jumped through several hoops to get them.

EDIT: If they want to get them enchanted later, they will certainly be high quality enough for that (Master Q), but a whole other set of hoops will be waiting for them.
(hmmm, I'm using that smiley a lot lately...)

[gideon_thorne]

bighara wrote:
IMC, the PCs (currently around 7th-8th level) recently found some mithril. Not items, just the metal in 1# ingots (20# worth). It's a small fortune, but they want to have goodies made from it. To do this, they've trekked to a remote village where a dwarven smith lives (the only person in the nation who can do the job). He explained that -firstly- his fee was two of the ingots and in order to smelt the metal, regular wood or coal for the forge wouldn't do. This led to the PCs seeking the bones of a dragon-kin or creatures from the elemental plane of fire. In the end, they'll be essentially paying 20,000gp worth of the metal, and doing at least one side-quest to get their items. Not to mention the original owners will still be wondering what happened to the ingots.
18# will not make a suit of chain or plate. They'll end up with something like a couple scimitars (it's an Arabian setting) and a buckler or some such. Granted, it means that the party will have 2-3 items with +5's in their possession, but 1) they aren't magical, so they won't affect creatures who are only hit be magical weapons/spells, and 2) they've jumped through several hoops to get them.

EDIT: If they want to get them enchanted later, they will certainly be high quality enough for that (Master Q), but a whole other set of hoops will be waiting for them.
(hmmm, I'm using that smiley a lot lately...)

This.

Now this is a game I'd enjoy. Lots of story reasons to get stuff. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Deogolf]

Buttmonkey wrote:
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the problem. If the CK thinks +5 is too much, don't leave mithril lying around where the PCs can find it. Nothing forces the CK to include mithril items in her campaign. The game doesn't break if mithril isn't available.

My thoughts exactly.
_________________
Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

[serleran]

It is not so much a matter of rarity that I truly care for (which is simple enough to control) as much as what the effects actually are -- granted, if I don't want a character to ever know what they are, they'll never get mithril. But... if I do want them to, then the effects are just too much. So, either I modify what it does, never give it out, or something else... I'd rather just change what it does.

Besides, I don't like the idea of some naturally occurring substance having the same general effects as the most powerful of magic items.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[anonymous]

It's not +5, it's potentially +10. Mithril per M&T gives you +5 without any magic being used...

[Lord Dynel]

serleran wrote:
...I don't like the idea of some naturally occurring substance having the same general effects as the most powerful of magic items.

I guess this is my sticking point.

As serleran said, I can control the rarity. That's not an issue. bighara's example was a spectacular one; one worthy of the "specialness" that mithril brings to a game. And C&C does the rare metal justice, no doubt. I guess, as serl so stated, I'm not sure that having a mithril weapon as powerful as the most powerful sword in the game (magic bonus-wise) would float well in my game. And I guess that's what it boils down to - CK preference. I'd be afraid that my players would eventually scoff at a mithril longsword (most likely for its lack in ability of hitting magical creatures).

Another one of my concerns (or I guess an extension of my concerns above - which basically stems from the scoffing comment) is that when the players are about at the power to have a mithril weapon they won't be too far away from being ready for weapons in the +4/+5 range. Of course all this is controlled by the CK, but if given the choice, I can't see how they wouldn't go for the magic weapon over the mithril one.

I'm sure not everyone sees this as a potential issue. Like some of my topics, I brought this up because it struck me as a good conversation piece more than anything else. I like to hear what others have to say on this. I appreciate all of the feedback so far...keep it coming!
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Treebore]

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
It's not +5, it's potentially +10. Mithril per M&T gives you +5 without any magic being used...

Yep, which is why I choose to have Mithril and Adamantium be capable of being +4 and +5, but it is also just "Master Craftsmanship". The metal in and of itself is not what makes it +4 or +5, but the properties of the metal combined with a highly skilled craftsman is what gets you the +4 and +5 in terms of to hit and damage.

So like when any masterly crafted weapon/armor is enchanted its natural craftsman bonus is subsumed into the magical enchantment.

I use 1E for my inspiration on this. Even using "meteorite iron" for +3 items, and having a seriously master craftsman know some interesting allows to allow for +2 master craft weapons.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[bighara]

gideon_thorne wrote:
This.

Now this is a game I'd enjoy. Lots of story reasons to get stuff. ^_^

Thankee.
If you want to see what's going to happen next, you can check this post at Piazza (my players stay OUT): Funtimes in Ylaruam