An overarching pantheon, one god of each alignment

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:09 pm

I'm not sure if this has been brought up in the past or not...I thought I recalled something similar but I'm not sure. My apologies if it has.

I have been thinking of some time about creating a pantheon of nine gods, one representing each alignment. I've made pantheons filled with gods of varying aspects (agriculture, thieves, and blacksmiths, for example) but not one so small, yet all encompassing, that I'm suggesting above. The problem I ran into (I've thought about it in the past, but it never got beyond that point) is that I can't seem to come up with broad enough aspects/areas of control/spheres that something doesn't seem left out.

The CN god would be of Chaos, perhaps. Maybe the LN god would be of Justice, or Order and the N god would be of Nature and Balance. But are these broad, yet all encompassing, enough? I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly or thoroughly enough...I hope I am. I think of Christianity, where god represents all things good and Satan all things evil.

Is this something that can be achieved, or are campaigns worlds destined to have gods of sailors and goddesses of harvests for all time?
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:18 pm

It can be done. What you end up with, for example, are gods that represent aspects of different other things... like a goddess of neutrality is the one of the harvest and growth, whereas a chaotic neutral god might represent nature in its wrath and rage (earthquakes, volcanoes, etc) but as long as some part is "neutral" it would make sense. A great deal depends on what perspective you take and what things "mean" to the gods.
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:35 am

You could have your 9 gods each have 'Saints' who are mortals raised to demi-god(ish) level who are in control of the various aspects. So your LG God, could have a demi-god saint for justice, and one for honorable warfare. the Neutral God could have a demi-god saint for agriculture, maybe one each for planting and harvest. And so on and so on. Start with the 9 Gods, and then add in the saints as needed in your campaign. The Evil gods' saints could be devils/demons rather than raised mortals, too.

The saints could also be defeatable by a high level party if that was to your liking. Rather than being able to defeat one of the Nine, as god vs mortal, should logically end up only one way, the party could defeat one of the gods many saints instead, and thwart the god's intentions on earth that way.
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Jackal · Post by **Jackal** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:46 am

Funny you should mention this. I did that exact thing when creating the gods for my campaign world...even called them The Nine.

At first I tried to encompass every aspect of creation/life and found it to be pretty difficult and pretty pointless (for me at least). It did, however, get me to thinking that I don't like the traditional fantasy take on gods. I prefer the real world take on them instead.

My nine gods have spheres of influence because these are the things they are drawn to and, ages ago, mastered. Not every force in existence has a god but every god has forces that they now have control over. In my world, if the god of death vanished or was destroyed the ending of life wouldn't stop. In fact, it would go on more naturally without some other-worldly being messing around with it.

In short, my gods didn't create or generate the spheres over which they have control. They just took control of the primal forces of the world as they saw fit. This also means the spheres don't have to match the god's alignment. Just because a neutral-evil god has command over the sphere of knowledge doesn't make it evil. It just means an evil god took such an interest in knowledge that he now commands the sphere which represents it.

As Serleran said, a lot depends on the perspective you take when creating your gods.

For the fun of it, the nine gods of my world are:

Elowin- Goddess of animals, plants and nature (neutral)

Khel (The Destroyer)- God of strength, order and undeath (lawful evil)

Lirasyn- Goddess of love, hearth and spirit (neutral good)

B'ry (The Corruptor)- God of vice, chaos and corruption (chaotic evil)

Raziel- God of death, wisdom, moon, protection and healing (lawful neutral)

Udin- God of war, weather, and creation (chaotic good)

Soth (The Deceiver)- God of knowledge, trickery and cunning (neutral evil)

Voth- God of sun and virtue (lawful good)

Yira- Goddess of fortitude and hunting (chaotic neutral)

One of these days my campaign e-book will be finished and I'll post it for all to see. Only three years and counting now.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:19 am

I wish I could post the stuff I was doing for Lejendary Pantheons regarding use of that material with C&C -- it would cover this with a little thing I had tentatively termed "alignment flux."
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:24 am

serleran wrote:
I wish I could post the stuff I was doing for Lejendary Pantheons regarding use of that material with C&C -- it would cover this with a little thing I had tentatively termed "alignment flux."

None of your work for it, is legally yours? Especially your own unique ideas like "alignment flux'?
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:01 am

As a "conversion" of sorts, being derived from the work of Gary, I don't think I could claim it as mine, except for those things which I created which were not in the original. For example, Lejendary Adventure does not use "alignment" and C&C does, so that portion could probably be called "mine." But, it was also work done on request, so it belongs to the publisher, in this case, to-be Troll Lord Games... so, even if I could, I don't think I would post it. If I had permission from both sides, then yes, I might make it available.

Sorry for the derail... just some times there are things done and finished that one wished could be used but then realizes will likely never see the light of day. It makes serleran sad.
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:12 pm

You would have to carefully encapsulate each alignment. You couldn't easily assign any secondary spheres to any of the gods or goddesses - for instance the urge to make a Neutral deity a nature-loving, Druidy type would invite a lot of N urbanites (PC thieves for instance) to say, "But what's all that wilderness stuff got to do with me?"

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:57 pm

Not really. Not if you give each part of Neutral something to do. For example true neutral might be druid-like, and neutral evil might have theft and dishonesty while lawful neutral might have code and honor, and chaotic neutral is the rage of nature. Overlapping would be natural, of course. Or, you could just decide that the gods do not have any aspects they produce and are simply just the gods of the alignment, and do not care what the people do, provided the alignment itself is followed... in this way the alignments become an actual force.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:29 pm

Well, while I do want to encapsulate the alignments - and therefore, the gods - I also want to encompass as many aspects in them as possible (much to Jackal's dismay ). The saint idea is a good one, dachda, and one I thought about but it kind of defeats the purpose of only having nine gods. I envision these nine gods each having one aspect that are broad enough to encompass, basically, everything. I'm not sure this is possible. I think of Christianity and think, "well, if we can do it with only one god, then having nine gods should be a breeze!" But of course it's not the case, actually. Christianity is kind of (but not really) a "dualistic" monotheism - God (the only true divine power) and Satan. It's easy to have one god cover all the aspects of good, and one power having reign over all evil. Even non-good or evil aspects - storms, nature, and the like - can be attributed to one or the other depending on their nature. That's kind of what I would like to have, just spread over nine religions.

Speaking of the nine religions, these are my rudimentary thoughts:

Life (CG)

Death (LE)

Love (NG)

Hate (NE)

Order (LN)

Chaos (CN)

Balance (N)

Light (LG)

Darkness (CE)

My main problem is that aspects like Death and Darkness aren't evil, per se. People who worship the night...I wouldn't expect them to be of CE alignment. Not really...but clerics? They'd have to be, and this is where I'd have a problem. With death, I can see two different groups. I can see those who gather to and praise the act of death and make ritual sacrifices during their services - they worship Death. I can also see someone consoling another who has just lost a love one - they probably are a follower of Balance (for every beginning there is an end and all that jazz). But in this last example, if they prescribe to Death's doctrines, then are they revering an "evil" deity? Hope I'm not rambling!

Every alignment/god has a diametrically opposed aspect, with Balance being the mitigating factor between each one. That part, I like at least, even if these may not be the "final" aspects. The more I think about it, the more I think this may not be possible, with just one aspect per god - there just may be too many important aspects to pass up.

An yeah, Jackal, The Nine is what I'm planning to call mine, too (and have been for some time - if I can figure this $%!# out).
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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:02 pm

I've actually thought to just use the "basic" alignments (LN, NG, N, NE, CN) and use them for the gods in a campaign. This covers the Law, Good, Neutral, Evil, Chaos. To get the "mixed" aspects (LE, LG, CG, CE), the gods could have overlapping tenets.

Just some thoughts, but, like LD, I get bogged down in the covereage.

R-
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:52 pm

One thought I just had, was to relate the 9 alignments to a human emotion, rather than an aspect like Death, or darkness. You have a couple already.

Love (NG)

Hate (NE)

But how 'bout

Jealousy (LE)

Cruelty (CE)

Indifference (N)

Loyalty (LG)

Romantic love (CG)

Family love (NG)

Druids could worship Gaia, which istn't a 'god' per se, but some sort of elemental force associated with Nature, the planet , the stars etc . . . .

and so on. I think that was how the Greek Gods worked, they represented extreme emotional aspects of human beings (I think).
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dunbruha · Post by **dunbruha** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:51 am

How about maybe keeping the basic good/evil/neutral split, but having a pair of gods/goddesses for each?

just an example:

Good: Husband (tends toward Law) & Wife (tends toward Chaos)

Evil: Brother (tends toward Chaos) & Sister (tends toward Law)

Neutral: Twins (one tends toward Law, the other Chaos)

So characters who worship LG would worship the Husband, characters who worship CG would worship the Wife, and characters who worship NG (who are basically just Good-sometimes chaotic, sometimes lawful) would worship both gods (the Good "pantheon"--both the Husband and the Wife acting together for Good).

Ditto for the neutral and evil god pairs.

You could call them "The Six"...

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:18 pm

These last two posts have got me thinking a little, which is always a good thing!
I think one of the things is that Ive been limiting myself by having one god and having an exact opposite. For Death, I had Life and for Love I had Hate. I'm not sure that's the way to go because it limits me on both sides of the alignment spectrum.

I've also had thoughts of Creation, Destruction, Magic, and Elemental aspects.

I've thrown this out to my wife, and gave her my earlier examples (listed above) and told her my chief concern - that Death and Darkness (for instance) isnt inherently evil. Her response, though short, seemed quite profound. "True, while they're not inherently evil, it would seem that those mortals that worship concepts like Darkness or Death are probably doing so for purposes beyond their basal principles." That really threw in an additional monkey wrench. The example she gave me was that while some might revere darkness, they might do so though the Balance or Life aspect. But someone who truly worships darkness is probably doing so for more nefarious purposes.
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Zebulon · Post by **Zebulon** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:37 pm

With a single deity for each alignment, you could bring back Alignment Languages. Priest would automatically know the language of their deity/alignment, while followers would grasp it according to how much they are faithful to the deity. This alignment language would be imparted supernaturally as a result from sincere worship.

Lord Dynel wrote:
I've thrown this out to my wife, and gave her my earlier examples (listed above) and told her my chief concern - that Death and Darkness (for instance) isnt inherently evil. Her response, though short, seemed quite profound. "True, while they're not inherently evil, it would seem that those mortals that worship concepts like Darkness or Death are probably doing so for purposes beyond their basal principles." That really threw in an additional monkey wrench. The example she gave me was that while some might revere darkness, they might do so though the Balance or Life aspect. But someone who truly worships darkness is probably doing so for more nefarious purposes.

Good point. I agree 100% with it.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:33 pm

Zebulon wrote:
With a single deity for each alignment, you could bring back Alignment Languages. Priest would automatically know the language of their deity/alignment, while followers would grasp it according to how much they are faithful to the deity. This alignment language would be imparted supernaturally as a result from sincere worship.

Hmm...very true. I never even though about that!

Zebulon wrote:
Good point. I agree 100% with it.

She definitely does have her moments.
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:19 pm

How about fear or terror rather than darkness?

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:56 pm

I think Creation and Destruction covers a little bit better (and more) than Life and Death, and gives the "dark side," Destruction, a better fit for an evil alignment. I think of war-wagers as a perfect example - generals, warlords, kings, or warmongers could revere a few different gods depending on their alignment/outlook; Destruction, Order, or Balance, for example. Fear sounds good, Tenser. It is worthy of consideration.

So here's what I'm thinking:

Creation (NG)

Freedom (CG)

Justice (LG)

Order (LN)

Chaos (CN)

Balance (N)

Destruction (CE)

Fear or Tyranny (LE)

Hate (NE)

They seem too political, though.
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:54 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
I think Creation and Destruction covers a little bit better (and more) than Life and Death, and gives the "dark side," Destruction, a better fit for an evil alignment. I think of war-wagers as a perfect example - generals, warlords, kings, or warmongers could revere a few different gods depending on their alignment/outlook; Destruction, Order, or Balance, for example. Fear sounds good, Tenser. It is worthy of consideration.

So here's what I'm thinking:

Creation (NG)

Freedom (CG)

Justice (LG)

Order (LN)

Chaos (CN)

Balance (N)

Destruction (CE)

Fear or Tyranny (LE)

Hate (NE)

They seem too political, though.

Looks good to me. I like the fear/tyranny for LE, using fear to 'persuade' people to obey the law, is a good match. While Justice for LG is equally good, using the courts and rule of law to 'persuade' folks to obey the law - the no man is above the law idea, seen with King Arthur tales.

Not sure why you see these as political, care to elaborate?
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:42 am

dachda wrote:
Looks good to me. I like the fear/tyranny for LE, using fear to 'persuade' people to obey the law, is a good match. While Justice for LG is equally good, using the courts and rule of law to 'persuade' folks to obey the law - the no man is above the law idea, seen with King Arthur tales.

Not sure why you see these as political, care to elaborate?

Thank you, sir. I don't know why I made the "political" comment - after I thought these out, the first thing came to mind was ancient Rome for soem odd reason. Maybe, to me, they just don't sound too fantastic for a fantasy game. I'm just trying to do something a little different, other than having an umteen-god pantheon with a god for every little thing I can think of.
As for the fear/tyranny god, I might go with two aspects for every god, but I don't know for certain. Those two aspects would be the two for the LE god (and another ones I thought of were Hate and Greed for NE and Destruction and Death for CE). The jury's still out on that one, though.
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Zebulon · Post by **Zebulon** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:00 pm

This pantheon sounds interesting. I have one question and one suggestion:
Question: Maybe destruction should be NE, as it would oppose creation of NG. In this case, though, I would term NE : entropy. Then, I well see hate for CE. So why not :

NE -> Entropy

CE -> Hate and Perversion.
Suggestion: Each of those twelve gods would be divine powers beyond comprehension of mortals, if those mortals aren't sages with a 18+ Int. As such, people would have a deity to represent these divine forces. According to the race, culture, place, there could be different gods, yet those would ultimately represent the same force. This would be a nice way to have several lesser unknown cults, sometimes even opposing each other without realizing they worship the same divine force (or maybe they realize it, but each consider their own way of worshiping it the proper one while others are heretics).

I think I am going to borrow your ideas with my additions (alignments language and this suggestion).
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:42 pm

I'd rather play in a game that brought back to hit modifications by armour type than one that brought back alignment languages...

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:44 pm

Zebulon wrote:
This pantheon sounds interesting. I have one question and one suggestion:
Question: Maybe destruction should be NE, as it would oppose creation of NG. In this case, though, I would term NE : entropy. Then, I well see hate for CE. So why not :

NE -> Entropy

CE -> Hate and Perversion.

"Perversion" is a subjective concept - one which might even be defined as whatever conflicts with your alignment.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:24 pm

Thanks for the input, Zebulon. I like Destruction being NE, but something keeps bringing me back to CE. Maybe its my view of the concept; I see natural disasters, raging war bands, and vengeful gods being bent of destruction - all chaotic and (mostly) evil-like in nature. Hate definitely transcends law and chaos and therefore a great choice for a NE deity, IMHO. I know these are opposite of your suggestions, but your feedback and opinion is always appreciated.
Here is yet another revision of my Nine Alignment Pantheon, with each alignment now having two aspects:

Valor/Peace (LG) (was thinking Virtue instead of Peace?)

Love/Freedom (CG)

Mercy/Life (NG)

Order/Justice (LN)

Balance/Fate (N)

Chaos/Discord (CN)

Tyranny/Fear (LE)

Destruction/Deceit (CE)

Hate/Greed (NE)

Some aspects arent diametrically opposed, alignment-wise, with their opposites, and some are. Love (CG) and Hate (NE) arent but Order (LN) and Chaos (CN) are, for example. I think opposite concepts dont have to have opposite alignments. Do any of you think Im out of my mind, and that they should be (by their very nature) opposite, or do they make sense as written?

I think Ive done a decent job so far of keeping out too specific a concept and keeping the aspects as broad and as all encompassing as I possibly can. If theres anything anyone sees that should be shifted, moved, added, deleted, please let me know!
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dunbruha · Post by **dunbruha** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:54 am

Zebulon wrote:
Suggestion: Each of those twelve gods would be divine powers beyond comprehension of mortals, if those mortals aren't sages with a 18+ Int. As such, people would have a deity to represent these divine forces. According to the race, culture, place, there could be different gods, yet those would ultimately represent the same force. This would be a nice way to have several lesser unknown cults, sometimes even opposing each other without realizing they worship the same divine force (or maybe they realize it, but each consider their own way of worshiping it the proper one while others are heretics).

Nice. Consider this swiped!