A skill system for Castles & Crusades

[Lord Dynel]

This is something I've been working on for a while. I gave up on it at one point, then realized earlier this weekend that it was very close to completion, so I finished it. Be forewarned - I didn't revolutionize the game (at least I don't think I did ), but it seems to be a nice, little workable system.

Without further ado, here is is - a C&C skill system. Please feel free to critique to your heart's content - it won't get any better if not!
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Treebore]

Yeah, I am searching for a good skill system myself. In my new PbP game I am trying out a new system. In order to get any skills beyond assumed knowledge for their class they need to write up a background history describing how they got the skill(s) they wish to have in a sensible coherent manner. If I approve of their story they get the skills/knowledge.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[MacLeod]

Interesting idea, guy. My only issue is with the categories you use. In the spirit of constructive criticism and free trade of ideas, the following covers what I use.
(some of these mirror what you use)

1) Acrobatics = Balance, Tumbling

2) Athletics = Running, Jumping, Swimming

3) Deceit = Bluff, Lying, Document/Signature Forging

4) Devices = Trap setting/disarming

5) Diplomacy = Persuasion, Negotiation, Haggling

6) Disguise = Dictates costume creation abilities

7) Handle Animal = Animal training and control

8) Heal = Knowledge of mundane healing methods (first-aid)

9) Intimidate = Scarin' folks with a mean grimace

10) Knowledge = Taken for different scholarly subjects

11) Lore = Generalized obscure knowledge (bard specialty)

12) Magical Script = Ability to read magical languages in order to use scrolls

13) Perception = Covers the five senses

14) Perform = Instruments, tale telling, singing, etc...

15) Poisons = Poison-specific knowledge, how to use, create and handle

16) Sleight of Hand = Pick pocketing, concealing small weapons, etc...

17) Stealth = Hide, Move Silently, Conceal, etc...

18) Survival = Wilderness-specific knowledge, environmental traps

I suppose you could also add Gather Information and Profession to make my list a bit more like yours.
A minor suggestion. Replace "plusses" with "bonuses" or "skill points." Makes the concept more clear if you ask me.

[Lord Dynel]

Thanks for the advice, MacLeod! Much appreciated!

First, I tried to distribute as much as I could to each and every attribute; I tried to give each attribute something and not leave any out. Also, I tried to use as few class abilities that were already in play to classes as I could (such as Hide, Traps, etc.) - I only tried to take ones that were broad enough to see use with other classes. Lastly, and I could be misunderstanding you categories, I tried not to do write up skills that would undermine - I'm looking at the Stealth (one check?) as opposed to a rogue using Hide and Move Silent (two checks - unless you replaced those class abilities). I notice that your categories are very comprehensive as opposed to mine being a bit lighter and more broad. I was purposely going for a broad stroke with my skills, but it's easily rectified by doing something similar to your lists. It's all good!
And yeah, I went with the word plusses but as you pointed out, feel free exchange that word with one of the ones you suggested.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[gideon_thorne]

Honestly, I'm not one for free skill systems. I'd rather the system cost something to acquire.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Lord Dynel]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Honestly, I'm not one for free skill systems. I'd rather the system cost something to acquire.

Care to elaborate, good sir?
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[MacLeod]

It sounds to me like he is trying to start an an idea trade embargo! My poor upbringing has instilled this weird sympathetic/empathic/generous character flaw. @Lord Dynel

Stealth can be used for both hiding and moving silently indeed. I did this because rolling twice to move silently while hiding in the shadows seems silly to me. Since both abilities are based on Dex I don't see a reason to split them up anyways. Dig? If you want to hide, roll Stealth. Move silently? Stealth. It cleans things up. As it relates to a system where points are distributed... it makes more sense to bundle them together. In my opinion, of course. In addition to that reason, it is also a more 'rules-lite' friendly approach.

Quote:
First, I tried to distribute as much as I could to each and every attribute

Indeed. But it just isn't going to be a smooth operation. I like to note suggestions instead of ironclad rules. For instance, it is easy to assume that Athletics will probably use Strength, Constitution AND Dexterity at some point. For another instance, Intimidate could very well use Strength, Intelligence or Charisma.

Quote:
I notice that your categories are very comprehensive as opposed to mine being a bit lighter and more broad

I only go for comprehensive categories because having these sorts of categories reminds players what they can do. Not everyone is a creative wellspring of imagination and wit so it can help in some circumstances. I also try to push looking beyond skills 'n' abilities, which I think is very much the spirit of C&C. Also note that I have less skills listed while covering everything you did (and more). (wow, that sounds mean, apologies) While the list appears to be comprehensive, I only use skills for word association anyway. Nothing is nailed down or in stone about these. The skill system I use is just a small extension of the rules C&C already has in place.

Quote:
unless you replaced those class abilities

I did do some rule mechanic tweaks of my own to C&C. Character details are split into Aspects, Proficiencies, Abilities and Skills. (sounds like more work than it is) So perhaps some of my category suggestions aren't valid. x_x

[Orpheus]

I had thought at one point that a skill system would be a nice addition to the system, but after having seen one in action with the C&C game I've recently joined I think that I've changed my mind. It's not that it doesn't work, but just that it can kind of get tangled with certain class abilities and takes away from the simplicity of the system.

[MacLeod]

That is really based on implementation rather than straight up being faulty.

[gideon_thorne]

Lord Dynel wrote:
Care to elaborate, good sir?

Well, I'll give you my 'skill bonus system' short and sweet. A +1 to any roll costs 1000 xp per +.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Orpheus]

MacLeod wrote:
That is really based on implementation rather than straight up being faulty.

I do think that this is part of it. Our CK is a huge Rolemaster fan and sometimes I think that he wants to go too far into the realm of complexity. I played in a demo game which he ran this past Saturday and he had an automatic character sheet which he picked up someplace that had bizzare modifiers to saving throws. After the game I actually had to let him know that the system is even EASIER than what he was presenting.

The most common problem I've ran into regarding C&C is that most CK's seem to think that the Challenge Class is ALWAYS either 12 or 18. I'm always like, "Did you read the book guys?"

[MacLeod]

Indeed. That is sort of a travesty because the book is so small yet it covers everything so well. @Peter Gabriel That makes sense. ^_^ And it fits the rules lite concept pretty fantastically.

As I said previously... I don't think a Skill System needs to necessarily replace any game mechanics. Rule expansion works just as easily. I did something similar to the Bonus To Hit and Hit Die progressions.
I like C&C. It is like having a really neat set of legos where I can easily replace a piece of it and it still works just fine.

[Lord Dynel]

Indeed. Complexity can be the bane of a system like C&C, and I think it paramount to be as open and simple as possible. I thought 3.5 was a spectacular system, until implemented and it becomes known that the system strains under the weight of its own complexity. If the system can be mastered, it might be one of the best and most comprehensive systems ever devised, but mastering the system was close to impossible with all the exceptions the rules created.

MacLeod - Yes, I agree that Hide and MS could (and should) indeed be combined. As far as getting all the attributes involved in the skills allocation - I don't know, I thought I did pretty well. There just isn't too much (and never has been) for Strength and Constitution. And I understand about the need for detail. I tried to write up my skill rules in the spirit C&C (not that yours aren't) - kind of broad, fast-paced, and as simplistic as I could, but keeping their form and function. One of the things that I learned about 3.x, much too late, was that though the all the selection of thousands of feats, spells, and skills gave the impression of choice and individualism, it really limited what a character could and could not do. I tried to stay as far away from that mentality as I could. Some players need that structure, though, so I completely understand your viewpoint.

Understandable Orpheus. I've tried two other systems with C&C - one was way too broad and the other was a repeat of 3.x, almost exact. That's why I stopped developing mine, to be honest - I didn't want my efforts to be wasted. Though I did put the finishing touches on this system this weekend, I've tested it a few months back, and it seemed to work pretty good. As far as the system being faulty as opposed to the systems implementation, I agree 100%. See my earlier opinion on 3.x - one of the greatest systems ever made, IMHO, but in the wrong hands, its atrocious.

Well, I'll give you my 'skill bonus system' short and sweet. A +1 to any roll costs 1000 xp per +.

Ouch?
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[gideon_thorne]

Lord Dynel wrote:
Ouch?

Ok. A +1 to all dex based rolls 1000 xp

or A +1 to hit 1000 xp.

or A +1 to a given 'skill area' 1000 xp

For example.

And 1000 xp isn't so hard to come by if you plan.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[MacLeod]

If you increased every Level's Exp requirement by 500 you could increase one aspect by 1 every 2 Levels. This prevents people from spamming it while forcing all PCs to accept the Exp penalty so no one lags behind (more or less than usual).

I don't like to hate on 3.X too much... I like to think the hundreds of options as guidelines for those who need inspiration. I still use D20s many supplements for inspiration but I don't use the actual system itself anymore. Sort of on topic... I almost liked 4E because the streamlined simplicity of it all but then Powers happened and I became cry.
Eventually I'll get my own C&C campaign running and I'll post how my own tweaks worked out. I have a good feeling too.
Oh, hey... Lord Dynel. What do you use to make these PDFs? That is about the only thing that is preventing me from uploading my own stuff for others to view (I use Office XP).

[serleran]

As an aside, and a sort of "what?" I'll be using something like this in Ruins and Radiation (trademark of Atomic Clock Enterprises which is also trademarked by me, Robert Doyel.) I've decided to remove classes and levels from the game, but it will remain compatible with C&C as I will be making a "conversion" document for download as the time comes.
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Serl's Corner

[MacLeod]

Ruins & Radiation sounds like a post-apocalyptic version of C&C.
Perhaps that is the point? Though without Levels the SIEGE system would have to be altered a bit...

I'd buy something like that.

[serleran]

Not really. Levels just switch from class levels to "skill levels." For example, I might have a +4 pick pocket, but a +8 to save vs. poison. The reason being I have trained, specifically, for the latter (or, because it was cheaper for those who opt to ignore the training guidelines.) The function of the mechanic is the same, only you no longer have a single number that applies to everything (monsters do, though, via hit dice) -- the major difference is with attribute checks and I am not divulging how that works yet.

And, yes, it is a post-apocalyptic game system.
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[MacLeod]

Win!
After seeing your Classless system... I'm definitely interested. Do you have a website for this thing so that I might track its progress?

Interesting because my next (and first) C&C campaign is going to be a sci-fi, post-apocalyptic, horror, fantasy... thing. With a focus on vampire and therianthrope hunting.

[serleran]

Not yet. I do not have the skills needed to make a web site, but I have some ideas for it. First, I am commissioning the logo which is likely to be prominently displayed, and then I'll go from there. I have hopes of making the game available by the end of the year, but that's not set in stone since there is much to do, and many expenses before then... so, we'll see.

Thank you for the interest.

And, sorry to the OP for the threadjack. I'll leave the thread now.
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[MacLeod]

Indeed... apologies Lord Dynel.
To close my conversation with you, Mr. Doyel, good luck with your efforts! I look forward to the completion of your vision. I sincerely hope it all works out, I've always wanted to release a game myself so I like to others succeed where I may never get the opportunity to.

[Treebore]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Ok. A +1 to all dex based rolls 1000 xp

or A +1 to hit 1000 xp.

or A +1 to a given 'skill area' 1000 xp

For example.

And 1000 xp isn't so hard to come by if you plan.

May as well play Warhammer then.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Lord Dynel]

MacLeod wrote:
If you increased every Level's Exp requirement by 500 you could increase one aspect by 1 every 2 Levels. This prevents people from spamming it while forcing all PCs to accept the Exp penalty so no one lags behind (more or less than usual).

I don't like to hate on 3.X too much... I like to think the hundreds of options as guidelines for those who need inspiration. I still use D20s many supplements for inspiration but I don't use the actual system itself anymore. Sort of on topic... I almost liked 4E because the streamlined simplicity of it all but then Powers happened and I became cry.
Eventually I'll get my own C&C campaign running and I'll post how my own tweaks worked out. I have a good feeling too.
Oh, hey... Lord Dynel. What do you use to make these PDFs? That is about the only thing that is preventing me from uploading my own stuff for others to view (I use Office XP).

I don't want you to confuse any of my criticism of 3.x for dislike. I still very much like 3.x. But sometimes you still have to let go things you love dearly. Seriously, 3.x was (and is) a wondeful game...and it's a little weird that it's not "first" with me anymore. But times change, I reckon.

Oh, and I use PrimoPDF for my pdf -making needs. Works fantastically, IMHO.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[gideon_thorne]

Treebore wrote:
May as well play Warhammer then.

*chuckles* May as well play 3e with your 50 page house rule document. I set this up for C&C.
Sides, Warhammer has entirely the wrong set of assumptions for my own home setting. Too much hassle to change.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[MacLeod]

It would be easier to adapt Warhammer aspects to C&C than the other way around. Tzeentch's Curse, the setting, blackpowder & experimental guns, re-imagining Chaos enemies, etc...

@Lord Dynel: Thanks for the info. Perhaps in a few weeks I'll post my stuff after play testing it.

[gideon_thorne]

MacLeod wrote:
It would be easier to adapt Warhammer aspects to C&C than the other way around. Tzeentch's Curse, the setting, blackpowder & experimental guns, re-imagining Chaos enemies, etc...

I have a fairly complex home brew setting. If you ponder a fantasy equivalent of Star Wars, you might get the idea of the direction. Warhammer is based on entirely different assumptions.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Treebore]

I was referring to the 1,000 XP per point towards "X", which is pretty much exactly like Warhammers 100 XP per skill, talent, per wound point, per 5% weapons skill or attribute boost, etc...

The setting is a whole different story to be sure.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[MacLeod]

Sounds pretty interesting!

I'm a big supporter of home brew settings. Partly because I can't afford campaign settings and partly because it is easier to say something on the spot about your own world.

[Lord Dynel]

MacLeod wrote:
@Lord Dynel: Thanks for the info. Perhaps in a few weeks I'll post my stuff after play testing it.

No worries.

As far as Warhammer is concerned, I think Warhammer needs to stay Warhammer. It's a unique system and a great ruleset (a pretty ingenious system, to be honest), but I wouldn't want too many elements in C&C.

I'd love to see your skill system MacLeod, when you have it ready. I'm liking mine so far - it's easy, integrates pretty well with SIEGE (with the only change of rule is no levels added to attribute checks), is expandable, and at the same time still leaves the final arbitration in the hands of the CK (as far as there being no "hard rules" within the system, other than the skill points/plusses system itself).
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[MacLeod]

Indeedles.
Mine is more of a character creation alteration... station...deterioration...

*ahem*

Yeah. It is more of a new method of rolling up characters that incorporates more types of stuff, it even *gasp* changes progression a bit. I have a feeling it won't be many peoples' cup of tea but I can live with that.
It will add a thin layer of complexity when creating a character but I think a game like C&C won't suffer a bit from that.