Adjuncts?

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Lord Dynel
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Adjuncts?

Post by Lord Dynel »

Okay, for those who know who what they are, who plans on using them? After fully digesting the article, they sound pretty awesome but I don't know if they're going to bog down the game or not.

Here's hoping to see "Animal Companion" as an adjunct...and not just for the ranger and druid!
How's everybody else feel?
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Post by serleran »

I will not be using them, and I hope they remain in the field of 100% optional and no module (or sourcebook, save The Adventurer's Backpack which is the perfect place for this) ever prints new ones or assumes they are being used (by assigning such to NPCs or monsters.)

Otherwise, for the people clamoring about how "there's no customization" they now have "feats" to use. That's a good thing for those who need more rules.
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Post by Omote »

As I have been using feats since the begining of C&C, I will also add in Adjuncts. These types of abilities work just fine with the game.

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Post by GameOgre »

I wish I had a clue what you were talkig about......dang my poor empty walet!
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Post by MacLeod »

I feel y'r pain, bucko. I feel like I am drifting in the dark, bumping into something that may or may not be familiar. x_x

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Post by serleran »

Adjuncts are a concept preview of a rule to be found in the forthcoming Castle Keeper's Guide. It was revealed in the last issue of The Crusader, as I recall.
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Post by MacLeod »

Sounds like the CKG is going to be a pretty interesting sort of book. Perhaps it will end up being much larger than the core books, given the development time!

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Post by serleran »

Roughly 220 pages according to Steve's last statement about it, putting it nearly double the previous works.
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Re: Adjuncts?

Post by gideon_thorne »

Its funny to me that folks don't use a rather obvious means of character ability cross training. See the M&T under magic item creation and note what it says about the XP costs of buying class abilities for magic items.

The same thing can be used for those who want your fighter with thief abilities and so forth.
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Re: Adjuncts?

Post by moriarty777 »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Its funny to me that folks don't use a rather obvious means of character ability cross training. See the M&T under magic item creation and note what it says about the XP costs of buying class abilities for magic items.

The same thing can be used for those who want your fighter with thief abilities and so forth.

Well, to be fair, the sample ones presented in the article don't quite replicate class or racial abilities. However the point you bring up is a valid one. It isn't hard to do by any means but there are some players and GMs that prefer complete pre-fab stuff and others who are simply not afraid to have fun and tweak/change/alter existing rules or simply add new ones and toss others out.

What I'm curious about is the 'three-tiered' break down of the section in upcoming CKG. Will I use adjuncts? Maybe. I was never a fan of Feats and the last thing I would want to see is the creation of an endless array of these. However, I rather liked the examples given and see how these might help refine a character concept. I found the proposed breakdown that different classes could get these to be VERY interesting. Possibly more so than the examples given. Of course, I'm really curious of how this chapter will tie in to another talking about modifying the classes -- especially in the light of an Adventurer's Backpack...

2009 will be a good year for the game all around I think.

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Post by Jackal »

I'm going to give them a shot. They're basically an extension of what I do now which is to allow characters to gain some special talent from time to time if the player makes some roleplaying attempt to justify what the character would like to learn (seeking out unusual training, repeating a special attack which requires an attribute check, etc).

I'll keep them small so they don't start to bog things down or cause extra rules confusion like we saw in 3e. More on the lines of a bonus to hit or an extension of an existing class skill.

The only thing the adjunct rules will do for me is give a foundation to build from regarding how often these should be given out. So, basically, give me a little structure so I don't allow neat little tricks too often or not often enough. I like structure...and I can always change it if I feel said structure doesn't agree with my own time table.

I do agree with Serleran though; this sort of thing should be left optional. Additional optional material like this for modules or campaign settings is perfect for a cheap web product or Crusader article.
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Post by MacLeod »

When it comes down to it... most everything in a table top RPG is optional. As long as you know how to remove/replace/modify it.

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Really? Really?

Post by Bowbe »

serleran wrote:
I will not be using them, and I hope they remain in the field of 100% optional and no module (or sourcebook, save The Adventurer's Backpack which is the perfect place for this) ever prints new ones or assumes they are being used (by assigning such to NPCs or monsters.)

Otherwise, for the people clamoring about how "there's no customization" they now have "feats" to use. That's a good thing for those who need more rules.

80+% of everything in the CKG is considered optional with a 100% chance of being helpful. Please don't then go and assume or lead others to assume that the Adjuncts are indeed intended to be a "stamped with official goodness you MUST use this rule or your game is crap rule." Thats asanine and leads to completely the wrong conclusions.

This isn't WOTC after all. Nobody is telling anyone that their way of playing C&C is better or worse than anyone else's.

So let's dial back our 18th lvl muck-raking and piss-moaning for a minute and examine a few things shall we? Ok Great!
As we should also know it isn't in the interest of a game such as C&C to create a brand new character class for every little thing as it has a tendency to create lots of clutter and confusion (Like 2e/3e). Having a class for a swashbuckler, and a buccanneer, and a beggar, and a potter, and a sculptor simply adds a lot of Bu11-Sh1t to a game.

Using some simple player and not over the top character options and examples for CK's to do stuff with in their game seemed the best answer. Not to mention the fact that MOST CKs are already doing exactly that in their game and HAVE already been doing for "gasp" OVER 30 years. If you did not know that already, now you do. You've just been told.

One thing I wanted to do was give CK's the tools to create their own sorts of Adjuncts to give flavor to their own game. Nothing wrong with giving some power parameters for them to judge if a new power or ability was too strong or too weak.

Remember, if individual CK's want to create character classes, thats their business and they can do that till "who laid the rail' and everyone is happy because it doesn't create 'official" clutter to keep track of and keeps things pretty streamlined as far as content in subsequent products and product lines. To my mind everyone's happy because any individual's idea about a certain "optional class" (1/2 yetininjapirate)is always better than everyone else's.

With OPTIONAL rules like the adjuncts you find less need for a total class revamp and more ease at satisfying your individual players needs for achievement and originality.

I notice you tend to like to tie a lot of very stringent rules when you say such things as "always" and "never" to any post where even optional rules are mentioned. Sorry, but I can be droll and humorless too. I find such all or nothing points of view almost as tired to me as arguing about whether or not people put money from chance and community chest in free parking. Who cares if one person doesn't like it. That doesn't mean it needs to spoil the cheese of everyone else looking to explore new possibilities in their game.

Sure some of the Adjuncts are inspired by feats. So what? I hate to tell anyone this but feats when used as originally designed were quite an evolution (tho not a new one) to gaming. They did indeed offer players a bit of an opportunity to flash it up and be something more than just a beercan with a battleaxe. That said, this isn't why we wrote them at all. The idea to me was to offer exactly the thing you seem not to want.

Campaign based flavor. Why for example would rogues of a certain area or pirates of a certain sea have a specific and unique fighting style that isn't easily defined by standard character abilities in the PHB? There is nothing wrong with campaign based flavor and/or special abilities (even ones reflected in some feats or another) being added to a game to give its players more ownership of their character and more ownership of the campaign world that they play in. Maybe your monks need to be able to climb and fight? Maybe your barbarian should be able to hit badguys really hard every so often without resorting to Monty Haul and his bag of magic hammers. Maybe you have this problem with ale kegs and nobody knows how to f'n repair a barrel, but your pretty sure a simple attribute check aint gonna cut it according to the RAW. Maybe your a floppy hat, makeup and thigh boots cutlass fighter who's at odds with the armor class RAW. There could be an adjunct that solves your problem better than a phony sounding magic item in a low magic setting.

Either way, what was officially and totally avoided was the idea of trees and ven diagrams and all other manner of Horse $hit that allows someone to build up the ultimate one hit wonder character that ruins everyone else's fun. Thats not what its supposed to be about and to be honest, never was. We worked pretty hard to make sure Adjuncts don't stack and aren't completely class specific. I'm sure some will(stack) and are(class specific) but thats the nature of writing game rules. No matter what you do someone will find a way to break the rules in their favor.

C
P.S.:I'm on team TLG , nice to meet you. Thank you for your continued patience, support, positive outlook, and creative commentary.

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Re: Really? Really?

Post by gideon_thorne »

Bowbe wrote:
I'm sure some will(stack) and are(class specific) but thats the nature of writing game rules. No matter what you do someone will find a way to break the rules in their favor.

Did someone mention my name?
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Post by MacLeod »

Aggressive!
Its nice to meet you, too, guy. Only having a formless idea of what this adjunct system is about, I'm more interested than ever after that. I think lots of people are quick to judge anything based on similarities... but I'm sure if things are as Bowbe says, everyone will have a different tune to whistle after the CKG is released. I can't wait.

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Post by Omote »

THAT'S why Casey is da man. The old Bowbe.

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Post by serleran »

Quote:
Please don't then go and assume or lead others to assume that the Adjuncts are indeed intended to be a "stamped with official goodness you MUST use this rule or your game is crap rule." Thats asanine and leads to completely the wrong conclusions.

Exactly what I was trying to avoid, actually. As in, these are options, and not intended to become official -- keep them that way. That does not mean I have any direct use for them in my own game, just as others have no need to use the SIEGE Engine in theirs, or have switched to some non-Vancian magic system. Preferences vary and mine lean against wanting this, though I guarantee my wife would love the Adjuncts.

The rest of your post is pointless for me to say anything about since you failed to realize my reason to comment at all. Thank you, though. I appreciate you too.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

MacLeod wrote:
Aggressive!
Its nice to meet you, too, guy. Only having a formless idea of what this adjunct system is about, I'm more interested than ever after that. I think lots of people are quick to judge anything based on similarities... but I'm sure if things are as Bowbe says, everyone will have a different tune to whistle after the CKG is released. I can't wait.

Bowbe', or Casey is the author of the Haunted Highlands series of modules. As well as quite a number of award winning d20 system settings.

He's sort of the E. F. Hutton of the boards. When he talks, everyone listens.
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Post by serleran »

Yes, and it always never hurts to have a naysayer to get the fluids going and make something more exciting than it might have seemed at first. Or, have we forgotten marketing 101?
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Post by Lord Dynel »

As long as they are varied, have a little something for everyone (and byt eh preview in the latest Crusader, they will), I'm looking forward to them. Cautiously, however. I know they are optional (don't smite me Casey, please! ) and I want to use them. The examples seem tolead me to believe that they will be seemless and non-evasive in their integration, so hopefully my caution will be for naught. I don't worry about them as much as I did about feats, after the 3.x Players' Handbook - they were indeed a marveolus enhancement in the game, and then WotC went and f'd it up by adding about 3,000 more to the list.
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Post by jamesmishler »

serleran wrote:
Yes, and it always never hurts to have a naysayer to get the fluids going and make something more exciting than it might have seemed at first. Or, have we forgotten marketing 101?

Well, the problem here being that the 18th level Muck-Raking Piss-Moaner never seems to do much but piss and moan about what the company does... and having actually earned a living in marketing and advertising, I can say that having such a person associated with the very company itself continually pissing on what the company is doing is a high-level marketing negative.

I've also found in my 15 years of working in this industry that most of the folks I've had to work with that actually have taken Marketing 101 couldn't market themselves out of a paper bag, let alone find their behind to wipe it with their so-called "marketing degree."
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Post by serleran »

Heh. Please, let's continue the pile. Who is next?
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Post by Jackal »

Some think it should be optional, some thing it shouldn't and some seem to be too darn worked up about it. But can we actually get back to the original topic? The TLG forum isn't well known for this type of worthless sidetrack and I'd personally like to see it stay that way.
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Post by MacLeod »

You just directly assaulted roughly 90% or more of my posts!!!
I have to continually wonder why anyone would be worried about any of the stuff in the CKG becoming permanently fused to the rules... Unless TLG goes back to the PH and M&T and input the changes there, you won't have to worry about any of the additional rules. Especially if you don't even buy the CKG because then you won't even know what is in it!

Though an unnecessary mention, people will look over things and ultimately decide what to use and what not to use. For all I care, TLG could release a variant PH that makes the game as complex as D&D 3.5. I wouldn't buy it but I wouldn't pee my britches knowing it existed.

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Post by serleran »

Yes, in that light, you're absolutely right. My post was a knee-jerk reaction based on unfounded possibility and not reality.

I do look forward to seeing the full adjunct system, as there may be some very good and useful material in there, perhaps to be culled in another manner, or used as-is. It was, after all, a preview, and judgment should be reserved until it is final.
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Post by Bowbe »

Lord Dynel wrote:
As long as they are varied, have a little something for everyone (and byt eh preview in the latest Crusader, they will), I'm looking forward to them. Cautiously, however. I know they are optional (don't smite me Casey, please! ) and I want to use them. The examples seem tolead me to believe that they will be seemless and non-evasive in their integration, so hopefully my caution will be for naught. I don't worry about them as much as I did about feats, after the 3.x Players' Handbook - they were indeed a marveolus enhancement in the game, and then WotC went and f'd it up by adding about 3,000 more to the list.

Bingo. Wow how annoying was that? Every time I ran a 3ed game some yahoo would come at me waiving some new hardback fulla even more garbage feats, garbage magic items, and broken character class combos.

Core rules 3e was fun, beyond that it got to be a stroke factory. I mean that in the nicest possible way. As I said, most everything in the CKG is what a call optional. I mean, there may be some rules for digging through rock or earth for various races or how long it takes to break a door based on time vs. based on making 100 strength rolls to break the door. All optional. Some folks just have their own rules for stuff and alot of times their rules are really good.

The main "Rule" for creating rules has been to avoid counter intuitive thinking and clutter. When there is a doubt, consult the PHB. If the way it was done in the PHB isn't clear then we wrote up a ton of situational examples to clarify them for the so called "newbie" player and hopefully some gems for folks who already know how to play RPGs but just want a reference tome to shake at their player so as to say....

"The rules say your wrong AND your A D!Ck!!" (Love that Shirt)

OK Enough of my side-trekkin hahah. Sorry I don't post much. I'm a pretty busy guy.

I think folks who have a use for adjuncts in their game will dig what we did. Those who dont, probably wont and thats fine too. As I mentioned its their perogative to enjoy their game any way they see fit and there should by no means be any sort of rule that gets in the way of that.

As a kinda funny side note, sorta piggy backing off of Serleran's initial post, I DO have some Adjunct type optional abilities in a forthcoming Haunted Highlands Gazateer (that Pete may or may not be doing the cover for as we speak) in the Players Guide to Karbosk. I just needed Barbarians that were more barbaric and fighters with a bit more snazz. Monks with regional flavor. That sort of thing. Using adjunct like abilities seemed a natural fit to let the characters really buy into the Haunted Highlands setting. Not to mention the fact that a bit more beef is required to survive adventures there. So there ya go.

C.

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Post by serleran »

Well, the Haunted Highlands stuff is simply beautiful, so more of that, please.

Sorry I am an annoyance, by the way. Things will be getting much better. I had a talk to what is left of my s*rot*m and we agree... no more kicks is better for us both. But, really, this thread has shown me something obvious to everyone else... so, thanks, and I apologize again.
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Post by Bowbe »

No worries bro. We all been waiting for the CKG (even those of us who've been writing on it forever!) and I think we all have some love for the TLG.

I like to focus on the positives as much as possible because really who else but TLG is really out there in these Dark Dark Days of RPGness?

I could mention other games that aren't doing to hot but I won't waste the text.

Fans of TLG have a lot to look forward too in the coming months! All I can really add is Steve asked me for 2-3 more books and he's already got 4 (or 5) of mine on his plate!

Sorry if I tease a bit when I say that we got a lot in the lines. Some folks on here have an idea of whats in the production hopper and others don't. I maybe assumed Serleran knew more about whats on the horizon than he does so if thats the case My Bad! I'm dying to see M&T2 and dig into some Adventurers Backpack!

Either way. Back to work!

C.

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Post by Treebore »

Sounds like Adjuncts are an interesting way to accomplish what I do with my house rules. So now I know to award them an "Adjunct" when they earn one in my games, rather than whatever it is I do call them in my house rules.

Sorry, my house rules are 10 pages (50 pages according to Gideon) and its hard to remember what words I used for what.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Treebore wrote:
Sorry, my house rules are 10 pages (50 pages according to Gideon) and its hard to remember what words I used for what.

I thought about writing down the ones I use at times. Trouble is, they aren't really fixed. I tend to adapt to the inclinations of a given game group, and I see what sort of players I'm working with first. Before I drop suggestions as to what kind of odds and ends rules might work.
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