Troll Lord Games

My Co-DM is continuing to run my longterm (since 1 E) mage through 'The Gates of Firestorm Peak.'

13th level mage, 6th level ranger henchman

10th level fighter,

12th level Cleric, 7th level paladin henchman

13th level thief

Monsters were tuned up a bit. However the rank and file duegar in the first part were still very deadly. The Grappling and overbear rules work really well in giving hordes of low level monsters a chance to defeat high level characters. The fact that they lose an attack getting free or standing up, as well as the +5 or +10 vs. prone, prone/helpless finally solved the old 1E problem of unhittable high level PC"s .

Add in my own house rule of every additional foe helping the first adds +1 or +2 and you can challenge high level PC's with low level humanoids!!!

These rules were very well done indeed!!!!

The problem is low level games. Grappling horde = TPK.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

In low level games, though, any sort of horde = TPK.

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
In low level games, though, any sort of horde = TPK.

Ha...truer words were never spoken.

Gundoggy - how is Firestorm Peak? I've never played it, though I have the pdf around here somewhere.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
In low level games, though, any sort of horde = TPK.

Nope.

With grappling a horde of 10 versus a group of 4 or 5 PC's is all that is needed. They all grapple until they succeed, then the others hack the PC's to death. Not the same.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Lord Dynel,

Without too many spoilers, my PC mage and group has just made it through the first 'chapter' or 'area' of the module (2 sessions). It's a typical 90's 2E module, big poster maps. Big sprawling dungeons...nothing like the small contained ones of 1E or 3E. It was used to showcase the player's options books so the tactical challenge of the foes are a step up above average. I really like that part. Sure lots of the opposition were low hit dice monsters but due to grappling/overbear, attacks from multiple groups from different directions it evens out. My party has relatively low AC's (17-22) due to past Mordenkainen's Disjunction, PC"s starting new characters many times, failed saving throws, so we aren't decked like X-mas trees. I really like that aspect, it's no fun if you just kill everything.

With a few siege rolls and player skill we had all the details we desired and fast game play!!! I love C&C!!!

Low level parties have many challenges. Grappling opponents is amongst them, and so is slipping off a ladder and falling 5 feet. It just happens that, unlike other difficulties (such as an evil magic-user who casts sleep), grappling remains a potential course of death throughout the character's "life."

Being outnumbered is usually a bad sign. If you realize you are, and throw caution to the wind, you deserve to be pummeled. However, if you approach with more care, you've increased your odds of survivability. That is why they say there is safety in numbers, after all.

So, basically, it just comes down to the way it is played, and how often. Some creatures might be more prone to overbear (orc linebackers, for example) and others to the various other maneuvers available (kobold wide receivers...)

And now I want to write up a C&C Fantasy Football game.
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Serl's Corner

Gundoggy wrote:
Lord Dynel,

Without too many spoilers, my PC mage and group has just made it through the first 'chapter' or 'area' of the module (2 sessions). It's a typical 90's 2E module, big poster maps. Big sprawling dungeons...nothing like the small contained ones of 1E or 3E. It was used to showcase the player's options books so the tactical challenge of the foes are a step up above average. I really like that part. Sure lots of the opposition were low hit dice monsters but due to grappling/overbear, attacks from multiple groups from different directions it evens out. My party has relatively low AC's (17-22) due to past Mordenkainen's Disjunction, PC"s starting new characters many times, failed saving throws, so we aren't decked like X-mas trees. I really like that aspect, it's no fun if you just kill everything.

With a few siege rolls and player skill we had all the details we desired and fast game play!!! I love C&C!!!

Ah, yeah, I remember that era. Good times. Sounds like it's a spectacular game. And ouch on the Disjunction - that hurts. My players are still pissed at me for one I threw at them about 7 years ago. Continue to enjoy it, sir, hopefully you stay alive!

serleran wrote:
And now I want to write up a C&C Fantasy Football game.

I love me same fantasy football...bring that sucka on!
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

serleran wrote:
And now I want to write up a C&C Fantasy Football game.

Sounds like the foundation of a better idea.
With inspiration from FFX's BlitzBall I wrote a turn-based sports game. It was a little wonky because I have no inherent understanding of sports nor any interest in real world sports.

serleran, if you can write one up incorporating a little Blood Bowl, that'd be freakin' sweet!
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Haha! Now you have been commissioned, serlean... Get to work!
Should this be in every most of mine from now on...?

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In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

Take the module A1 for example. Why wouldn't those creatures grapple you? Only because the CK decides not to since it would result in a TPK.

Your a party of 4, you see a group of 11 bandits raiding a trade caravan, do you help out the caravan, or do you stay back because when outnumbered like that 4 of them can keep you busy being grappled while the other 7 hack you to pieces with their +10 bonus to do so. So its in your self interest to stay out of it and just let the caravan people die, be enslaved, or at least robbed.

Grappling is too darn easy. It was too easy even in 3E when they allowed a free attack unless you had Improved Grapple.

The only way a party, of any level, survives encounters is either by keeping the numbers on each side equal, or forgetting Grappling is an option. Any time a group outnumbers the opposition by 2 to 1, or better, grappling is the first thing they should do.

So unless your OK with playing the bad guys as stupid, a lot of modules need to be rewritten to cut down on the number of opponents, including the "A" series modules, and the Haunted Highlands modules.

Otherwise, if you play the bad guys smart, and leave the encounters at the sizes they are, you will soon have a TPK due to how easy it is to Grapple.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

If C&C had Attacks of Opportunities, it makes sense to invoke one of those for each grapple attempt. I think the grapple attempts made by monsters would ignore this idea as long they are big fellas that grapple as a part of something else (like the Coautl).
_________________
In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

Treebore wrote:
Take the module A1 for example. Why wouldn't those creatures grapple you? Only because the CK decides not to since it would result in a TPK.

Your a party of 4, you see a group of 11 bandits raiding a trade caravan, do you help out the caravan, or do you stay back because when outnumbered like that 4 of them can keep you busy being grappled while the other 7 hack you to pieces with their +10 bonus to do so. So its in your self interest to stay out of it and just let the caravan people die, be enslaved, or at least robbed.

Grappling is too darn easy. It was too easy even in 3E when they allowed a free attack unless you had Improved Grapple.

The only way a party, of any level, survives encounters is either by keeping the numbers on each side equal, or forgetting Grappling is an option. Any time a group outnumbers the opposition by 2 to 1, or better, grappling is the first thing they should do.

So unless your OK with playing the bad guys as stupid, a lot of modules need to be rewritten to cut down on the number of opponents, including the "A" series modules, and the Haunted Highlands modules.

Otherwise, if you play the bad guys smart, and leave the encounters at the sizes they are, you will soon have a TPK due to how easy it is to Grapple.

If the players play the game smart, they could avoid fights entirely, grappling used or not. Its not always about direct confrontations.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

gideon_thorne wrote:
If the players play the game smart, they could avoid fights entirely, grappling used or not. Its not always about direct confrontations.

Thats a nice answer, but in order to "complete" A1 and break up the Red Caps you have to go into their lair and kill them. So now your forcing them to decide between "fail and live" or go in there and die from being grappled by the dozens of members.

Grappling needs to be harder.

I am going to start by upping the base grapple AC to 18, and see how much that reduces the success'.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

MacLeod wrote:
If C&C had Attacks of Opportunities, it makes sense to invoke one of those for each grapple attempt. I think the grapple attempts made by monsters would ignore this idea as long they are big fellas that grapple as a part of something else (like the Coautl).

C&C doesn't, but I am contemplating house ruling it into Grappling checks. I'll see how upping the base AC to 18 works first.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Treebore wrote:
Thats a nice answer, but in order to "complete" A1 and break up the Red Caps you have to go into their lair and kill them. So now your forcing them to decide between "fail and live" or go in there and die from being grappled by the dozens of members.

Collapse their lair from a distance. Cause a cave in. Rig the place to splode. All of which can be accomplished without the characters getting into a direct fight.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

gideon_thorne wrote:
Collapse their lair from a distance. Cause a cave in. Rig the place to splode. All of which can be accomplished without the characters getting into a direct fight.

We are talking first to third level parties here. They don't have the resources and means to do any such thing. Plus, the lair is in the Ridge, which are BIG hills. Kind of hard to collapse a hill. Even if they had modern day explosives.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

@Gideon: What if they have prisoners? As unlikely as that would be... Good aligned characters would probably have that running through their heads. Other characters might find ahsploding a lair dishonorable. Druids would definitely be opposed to harming mother nature with such a blasphemous tool. @Treebore: A sound approach.
You most certainly don't have to insert Attacks of Opportunities into the game (I'm definitely not) but I don't see a problem with it being a special inclusion for grappling...

I just imagine a d00d trying to grab a guy whom happens to have a sword. He will try to poke that fool fulla holes before he can get his paws on him (attack of opportunity).

All the while that guy is setting up a mean shoulder block to stop his approach (opponent making his SIEGE roll)

Here is a question somewhat related to the above... If a monster can simply walk past a fighter to get to a softer opponent, how do wizards and the like survive very long??? Do you guys implement some Zone of Control where monsters can't get past the fighter unless they take a detour? Or perhaps an aggro system? Seems to me that any monster that understands the potential power of wizards will go for those fools first.
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In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

MacLeod wrote:
@Gideon: What if they have prisoners? As unlikely as that would be... Good aligned characters would probably have that running through their heads. Other characters might find ahsploding a lair dishonorable. Druids would definitely be opposed to harming mother nature with such a blasphemous tool.

*chuckles* I don't play a lot of good aligned characters. I play practical aligned characters.

And a druids just as likely to treat all equally under the auspices of nature, they all fertilise the soil the same. ^_^

Quote:
Here is a question somewhat related to the above... If a monster can simply walk past a fighter to get to a softer opponent, how do wizards and the like survive very long??? Do you guys implement some Zone of Control where monsters can't get past the fighter unless they take a detour? Or perhaps an aggro system? Seems to me that any monster that understands the potential power of wizards will go for those fools first.

Stratgegy. Don't make your spell caster an obvious target.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Treebore wrote:
We are talking first to third level parties here. They don't have the resources and means to do any such thing. Plus, the lair is in the Ridge, which are BIG hills. Kind of hard to collapse a hill. Even if they had modern day explosives.

Twaddle. Show me even a first level dwarf who doesn't understand the structural engineering of a mine shaft, and more importantly, how to collapse it. And I'll show you one who's a circus side show instead of a pc race. ^_~`
One could reason any number of character types, with an intelligence prime, could work out structure and support as well.

The point being, there's always another way sides a direct fight.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Quote:
Your a party of 4, you see a group of 11 bandits raiding a trade caravan, do you help out the caravan, or do you stay back because when outnumbered like that 4 of them can keep you busy being grappled while the other 7 hack you to pieces with their +10 bonus to do so.

Divide et impera. The modern military might call it a killing box.
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Serl's Corner

Some ways to make grapple less deadly.

Simple Strength check. Don't allow BTH.

I did allow the PC to add BTH to their grapple check to break grapple...this way they lose a round or 2 vs. being continuously held and dead....

Make a bonus to grapple dependant on +1 per 2 or 3 bth bonus.

The dividing of bonus by a factor of 2 or 3 may also make the disparity of saves vs. a caster higher than you less dramatic. Also one could consider doing this for PC save bonus due to level. Example level 10 vs. level 16...disparity of 6 points. If you divide by 2..... 5 vs. 8 disparity of 3.

I'm going to play it BTB for now. 3E using spell level for challenge level made it too EASY to save vs. spell.

gideon_thorne wrote:
Twaddle. Show me even a first level dwarf who doesn't understand the structural engineering of a mine shaft, and more importantly, how to collapse it. And I'll show you one who's a circus side show instead of a pc race. ^_~`
One could reason any number of character types, with an intelligence prime, could work out structure and support as well.

The point being, there's always another way sides a direct fight.

Yep, but so far your ideas wouldn't work. It all requires going inside in order to attack the support structure, so even your solutions, so far, would require them facing the grappling hordes.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Gundoggy wrote:
Some ways to make grapple less deadly.

Simple Strength check. Don't allow BTH.

I did allow the PC to add BTH to their grapple check to break grapple...this way they lose a round or 2 vs. being continuously held and dead....

Make a bonus to grapple dependant on +1 per 2 or 3 bth bonus.

The dividing of bonus by a factor of 2 or 3 may also make the disparity of saves vs. a caster higher than you less dramatic. Also one could consider doing this for PC save bonus due to level. Example level 10 vs. level 16...disparity of 6 points. If you divide by 2..... 5 vs. 8 disparity of 3.

I'm going to play it BTB for now. 3E using spell level for challenge level made it too EASY to save vs. spell.

Some interesting ideas. Hopefully I'll remember to come back to this if the base 18 AC doesn't decrease the frequency of success enough to make it acceptable.

Whats up with this error today?

Could not insert new word

DEBUG MODE

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Line : 234

File : functions_search.php
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Treebore wrote:
Yep, but so far your ideas wouldn't work. It all requires going inside in order to attack the support structure, so even your solutions, so far, would require them facing the grappling hordes.

Not if you do it stealthily. What are thieves and rangers for if you can't use them to sneak in and clear the way. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Treebore wrote:
Yep, but so far your ideas wouldn't work. It all requires going inside in order to attack the support structure, so even your solutions, so far, would require them facing the grappling hordes.

Not if you do it stealthily. What are thieves and rangers for if you can't use them to sneak in and clear the way. ^_^
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Treebore wrote:
Yep, but so far your ideas wouldn't work. It all requires going inside in order to attack the support structure, so even your solutions, so far, would require them facing the grappling hordes.

Not if you do it stealthily. What are thieves and rangers for if you can't use them to sneak in and clear the way. ^_^

gideon_thorne wrote:
Not if you do it stealthily. What are thieves and rangers for if you can't use them to sneak in and clear the way. ^_^

Tell you what, read the final encounter in A1, rather than me tell you why it won't work.

I see the forum error got you too.

I posted a complaint on the new help forum for freeabb, so hopefully it will be fixed soon.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Treebore wrote:
Tell you what, read the final encounter in A1, rather than me tell you why it won't work..

I read it. It would work in my games.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley