Troll Lord Games

Posted: **Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:54 pm**

Ok, digging more from the archives. Here is a class we used back in the day, the Arcanist. An arcane spell caster that fills a niche between a Magic-User (Wizard) and the d20 Sorcerer. He is not tied to his spell books as is a Wizard, but still requires studying to keep his spells fresh in mind. And while he casts far fewer spells per day than a Wizard, he can cast any spell he knows, regardless of level. I am working on converting it to C&C, though a word of warning, this class requires some book keeping, and a fairly good track of time. I have been toying with many ideas on further tweaking

things, such as maximum spell level being divded by 3 instead of 2, but then rounding off instead of down. Further, I still need to define the Knowledge skill and convert the miscast charts. I'm not sold on the XP chart either...

Still, I thought I'd reach out for comments and get some help from you all.
The Arcanist (Intelligence)

Dusty libraries, tall towers, and damp underground studies are home to the studies of Sages, Wizards, and Arcanists. Sages seek knowledge for knowledges sake, Wizards seek to harness the arcane forces of the multiverse, Aracanists dwell between these worthy beings, and walk a path far from each. They channel the energies of the arcane through their bodies, this draining them as they unleash power, and 'ware the Arcanist that miscasts their spell.
Abilities
Spells

The Arcanist casts Arcane spells, much like a Wizard. They can cast a limited number of spells per day, though unlike the Wizard, the number of spells per spell level is not determined by their level. Instead, they may cast a spells of a maximum level of their level (round down). An Arcanist may cast a number of spells equal to their level + Intelligence Modifier, per day. For example a 3rd level Arcanist with an Intelligence of 17 can cast 3 + 2 or 5 spells per day, and these spells may be of 1st level. When that caster attains fourth level, he can cast 6 spells per day of 1st or 2nd level. Further, Arcanists may cast an unlimited number of level 0 spells each day.

The Arcanist does not memorize spells in the same way as a Wizard, and does not forget a spell once it is cast. Instead, he must study his spells from his spell books in order to remember them over a period of time. To successfully cast a spell, the Arcanist must make an Intelligence check, with a base modifier equal to the spell level multiplied by 3, then modified by other factors (such as lack of study time from his spell books, see below). Regardless of any modifiers, a roll of less than 5 results in a miscast spell (see below). For example, an 18th level Arcanist attempts to cast a 9th level spell, the Arcanist has an Intelligence of 18. The base challenge class is +27, this results in a test at 39. The Arcanist rolls a d20, adds her level (18) and Intelligence modifier (+3), thus needing a die roll of 18 to cast the spell. Additional modifiers can be found below.
Knowledge

Prime Attribute: Intelligence
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d4
Armor: Any (see below for casting modifiers)
Abilities: Spell Casting

Level...HD...BtH......EPP..........# of Spells...Max Spell Level

1..........1.......0................0.............1...................0

2..........2.......1.........2,501.............2...................1

3..........3.......1.........5,001.............3...................1

4..........4.......1.......10,001.............4...................2

5..........5.......1.......20,001.............5...................2

6..........6.......2.......40,001.............6...................3

7..........7.......2.....100,001.............7...................3

8..........8.......2.....220,001.............8...................4

9..........9.......2.....440,001.............9...................4

10......10.......3.....700,001...........10...................5

11....+1 HP....3.....875,001...........11...................5

12....+1 HP....3..1,150,001...........12...................6

13+..+1 HP.........+275,000...........+1................+1/2
Spell Book

The Arcanist must study from a spell book, much like a Wizard, and they must constantly study to maintain the mastery of their spells. To which the Arcanist, not being able to efficiently carry her library of spell books, will often prepare smaller volumes for use while traveling or adventuring. These books are not complete copies of the spells, but rather notes and reminders that aid in recall of the formula, movements, or incantations required. Over time, even with these traveling books, their recollection will begin to fade, and they will need to spend time pouring over their library to regain full working recall of the spell.

Their primary spell books are very large, perhaps 20x12x8, and weigh in around 15-20 pounds. Their bulk makes them much more difficult to carry, and thus their EV is 6. A traveling spell book may be 10x6x3, and weighs in at around 4-6 pounds with an EV of 2. Arcanists use a heavy parchment or vellum paper to write their spells on, and bind them in leather volumes. The number of pages varies with an average of 10 pages per inch, with the binding totaling inch, thus an 8 thick spell book would hold 75 pages.

In a primary source of a spell requires 2 pages per spell level, with 0 level spells taking 1 page. A secondary source of a spell requires page per spell level, with 0 levels spells taking page.
Sample Spell Casting Challenge Class Modifiers
+3 per Spell Level: Higher level spells are more difficult to cast.
+3: Each week a spell is not studied from a primary source
+2: Each day a spell is not reviewed from a secondary source (when primary source is not available), once reviewed from a secondary source, the penalty is halved and retained until a primary source is studied If the Arcanist does not continue to study the secondary source, begin with a new penalty chain, this is cumulative with any previous penalties of this sort. Example, Keric does not review his secondary spell book for 3 days and incurs a +6 penalty. On the fourth day he reviews his spell book, taking this penalty down to +3. On days five and six he cannot study and incurs a +4 penalty, added to the +3 from above to give him a total of +7, on day seven he is able to study again and now incurs a +2 and a +3 penalty for a total of +5. Once a primary source is studied, this penalty is removed.
+5: Casting in range of enemy's weapons
+2/hp damage: When damaged while casting, save vs. Constitution to reduce penalty in half
-#/+#: Using better than average material components (example: spell calls for a 10gp value amethyst and a 15gp (-1) or 5gp(+1) gem is used instead)
+2: High winds, or heavy rain
+5: Severe thunderstorms, large hail
+#: Casting from a rolling deck of a ship, make a Dex check, and if failed, apply (minimum of 1) of the amount the check was failed by.
+2: Casting from horseback, stationary
+#: When casting from a moving horse make a Dex check, adjust by the challenge class by 4 plus amount the check was failed by (Sample Dex adjustments, Walking horse +0, trot +3, canter +6, gallop +9),
+3*AC: When in armor, multiply the AC modifier by 3, apply as a modifier. Note: Magical armors reduce the modifier by their enchantment modifier, with the minimum adjustment being a 3. Example: Mail Hauberk is AC +5, so it's modifier would be 15; however, a Mail Hauberk +2 is still base AC+5 with a magical adjustment of +2 so it's modifier would be 13. Any that provides free mobility, like a Ring of Free Action reduces the modifier by 10, this can bring the total modifier to minimum of 0.
+1/2 Spell Level (round up): When a spell is cast, it becomes more difficult to cast again as the strain of casting causes stress in the neural pathways. This penalty is cumulative with subsequent castings of the spell. Once either a primary or secondary copy of the spell is read, this modifier is reduced to 0. Example, Keric casts Fireball on and advancing horde of Orcs, thinning their ranks; however they press on and he casts the spell again, this time the modifier is +2 since it is the second time in the day he casts the spell, a third casting would increase the modifier to +4, and so on.
+2 per Miscast: When a spell is miscast, the brain undergoes great strain enhancing the chance of further miscasts until the Arcanist rests. Once she rests, this modifier is reduced to 0.
-5: In a controlled environment like the Arcanists library
-5: Doubling the casting time, basically spending time rehearsing the spell prior to casting
-#: Taking precautions, such as Circles of Protection, Wards, Protection from Alignment, when summoning possibly hostile creatures. Example, a 20th level Arcanist is going to attempt to cast a Gate spell to summon a greater devil for questioning. She spends two hours scribing a Circle of Protection using exotic materials (15,000gp vale) to summon the creature into, and has cast Protection from Law and Protection from Evil on herself. Further she has prepared a Binding spell to trigger when the creature appears from the Gate. The CK could apply -3 for the circle, and -1 for each of the protection spells, and -5 for the Binding spell, for a total of -9 to the check.
-10: The Arcanist owns a Book of Infinite Spells, opened to a page of a spell that he has in his primary spell book. He will not incur any penalties based on not studying the spell that the book is opened to, and if the page of the book turns to a spell that currently has penalties applied, they are removed as if the character had studied from a primary source, though the spell from the previous page may now begin to incur penalties if not studied. Note that if the Arcanist casts the spell without a spell casting check, then double the normal chance of the page spontaneously turning, otherwise if casting the spell normally from memory with a SIEGE engine check, the page will not turn.[/list]
[quote]Code:

Posted: **Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:24 pm**

Interesting idea.

I realize you already pointed out that the bookkeeping difficulty of the class exists and I would just like to reiterate that it seems a little much. Doesn't really match the spirit of C&C but it could very well work for your group. I would recommend just an alternate spells per day progression.
My other issue is that the spell check is awfully rules heavy.

This is what I use for Spell Checks. It would probably have to be modified to use as an exclusive rule for the Arcanist.
http://rapidshare.com/files/195740239/Spell_Check.pdf
_________________
In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:05 am**

koralas wrote:
Ok, digging more from the archives. Here is a class we used back in the day, the Arcanist. An arcane spell caster that fills a niche between a Magic-User (Wizard) and the d20 Sorcerer. He is not tied to his spell books as is a Wizard, but still requires studying to keep his spells fresh in mind. And while he casts far fewer spells per day than a Wizard, he can cast any spell he knows, regardless of level. I am working on converting it to C&C, though a word of warning, this class requires some book keeping, and a fairly good track of time. I have been toying with many ideas on further tweaking

things, such as maximum spell level being divded by 3 instead of 2, but then rounding off instead of down. Further, I still need to define the Knowledge skill and convert the miscast charts. I'm not sold on the XP chart either...

Still, I thought I'd reach out for comments and get some help from you all.
The Arcanist (Intelligence)

Dusty libraries, tall towers, and damp underground studies are home to the studies of Sages, Wizards, and Arcanists. Sages seek knowledge for knowledges sake, Wizards seek to harness the arcane forces of the multiverse, Aracanists dwell between these worthy beings, and walk a path far from each. They channel the energies of the arcane through their bodies, this draining them as they unleash power, and 'ware the Arcanist that miscasts their spell.
Abilities
Spells

The Arcanist casts Arcane spells, much like a Wizard. They can cast a limited number of spells per day, though unlike the Wizard, the number of spells per spell level is not determined by their level. Instead, they may cast a spells of a maximum level of their level (round down). An Arcanist may cast a number of spells equal to their level + Intelligence Modifier, per day. For example a 3rd level Arcanist with an Intelligence of 17 can cast 3 + 2 or 5 spells per day, and these spells may be of 1st level. When that caster attains fourth level, he can cast 6 spells per day of 1st or 2nd level. Further, Arcanists may cast an unlimited number of level 0 spells each day.

The Arcanist does not memorize spells in the same way as a Wizard, and does not forget a spell once it is cast. Instead, he must study his spells from his spell books in order to remember them over a period of time. To successfully cast a spell, the Arcanist must make an Intelligence check, with a base modifier equal to the spell level multiplied by 3, then modified by other factors (such as lack of study time from his spell books, see below). Regardless of any modifiers, a roll of less than 5 results in a miscast spell (see below). For example, an 18th level Arcanist attempts to cast a 9th level spell, the Arcanist has an Intelligence of 18. The base challenge class is +27, this results in a test at 39. The Arcanist rolls a d20, adds her level (18) and Intelligence modifier (+3), thus needing a die roll of 18 to cast the spell. Additional modifiers can be found below.
Knowledge

Prime Attribute: Intelligence
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d4
Armor: Any (see below for casting modifiers)
Abilities: Spell Casting

Level...HD...BtH......EPP..........# of Spells...Max Spell Level

1..........1.......0................0.............1...................0

2..........2.......1.........2,501.............2...................1

3..........3.......1.........5,001.............3...................1

4..........4.......1.......10,001.............4...................2

5..........5.......1.......20,001.............5...................2

6..........6.......2.......40,001.............6...................3

7..........7.......2.....100,001.............7...................3

8..........8.......2.....220,001.............8...................4

9..........9.......2.....440,001.............9...................4

10......10.......3.....700,001...........10...................5

11....+1 HP....3.....875,001...........11...................5

12....+1 HP....3..1,150,001...........12...................6

13+..+1 HP.........+275,000...........+1................+1/2
Spell Book

The Arcanist must study from a spell book, much like a Wizard, and they must constantly study to maintain the mastery of their spells. To which the Arcanist, not being able to efficiently carry her library of spell books, will often prepare smaller volumes for use while traveling or adventuring. These books are not complete copies of the spells, but rather notes and reminders that aid in recall of the formula, movements, or incantations required. Over time, even with these traveling books, their recollection will begin to fade, and they will need to spend time pouring over their library to regain full working recall of the spell.

Their primary spell books are very large, perhaps 20x12x8, and weigh in around 15-20 pounds. Their bulk makes them much more difficult to carry, and thus their EV is 6. A traveling spell book may be 10x6x3, and weighs in at around 4-6 pounds with an EV of 2. Arcanists use a heavy parchment or vellum paper to write their spells on, and bind them in leather volumes. The number of pages varies with an average of 10 pages per inch, with the binding totaling inch, thus an 8 thick spell book would hold 75 pages.

In a primary source of a spell requires 2 pages per spell level, with 0 level spells taking 1 page. A secondary source of a spell requires page per spell level, with 0 levels spells taking page.
Sample Spell Casting Challenge Class Modifiers
+3 per Spell Level: Higher level spells are more difficult to cast.
+3: Each week a spell is not studied from a primary source
+2: Each day a spell is not reviewed from a secondary source (when primary source is not available), once reviewed from a secondary source, the penalty is halved and retained until a primary source is studied If the Arcanist does not continue to study the secondary source, begin with a new penalty chain, this is cumulative with any previous penalties of this sort. Example, Keric does not review his secondary spell book for 3 days and incurs a +6 penalty. On the fourth day he reviews his spell book, taking this penalty down to +3. On days five and six he cannot study and incurs a +4 penalty, added to the +3 from above to give him a total of +7, on day seven he is able to study again and now incurs a +2 and a +3 penalty for a total of +5. Once a primary source is studied, this penalty is removed.
+5: Casting in range of enemy's weapons
+2/hp damage: When damaged while casting, save vs. Constitution to reduce penalty in half
-#/+#: Using better than average material components (example: spell calls for a 10gp value amethyst and a 15gp (-1) or 5gp(+1) gem is used instead)
+2: High winds, or heavy rain
+5: Severe thunderstorms, large hail
+#: Casting from a rolling deck of a ship, make a Dex check, and if failed, apply (minimum of 1) of the amount the check was failed by.
+2: Casting from horseback, stationary
+#: When casting from a moving horse make a Dex check, adjust by the challenge class by 4 plus amount the check was failed by (Sample Dex adjustments, Walking horse +0, trot +3, canter +6, gallop +9),
+3*AC: When in armor, multiply the AC modifier by 3, apply as a modifier. Note: Magical armors reduce the modifier by their enchantment modifier, with the minimum adjustment being a 3. Example: Mail Hauberk is AC +5, so it's modifier would be 15; however, a Mail Hauberk +2 is still base AC+5 with a magical adjustment of +2 so it's modifier would be 13. Any that provides free mobility, like a Ring of Free Action reduces the modifier by 10, this can bring the total modifier to minimum of 0.
+1/2 Spell Level (round up): When a spell is cast, it becomes more difficult to cast again as the strain of casting causes stress in the neural pathways. This penalty is cumulative with subsequent castings of the spell. Once either a primary or secondary copy of the spell is read, this modifier is reduced to 0. Example, Keric casts Fireball on and advancing horde of Orcs, thinning their ranks; however they press on and he casts the spell again, this time the modifier is +2 since it is the second time in the day he casts the spell, a third casting would increase the modifier to +4, and so on.
+2 per Miscast: When a spell is miscast, the brain undergoes great strain enhancing the chance of further miscasts until the Arcanist rests. Once she rests, this modifier is reduced to 0.
-5: In a controlled environment like the Arcanists library
-5: Doubling the casting time, basically spending time rehearsing the spell prior to casting
-#: Taking precautions, such as Circles of Protection, Wards, Protection from Alignment, when summoning possibly hostile creatures. Example, a 20th level Arcanist is going to attempt to cast a Gate spell to summon a greater devil for questioning. She spends two hours scribing a Circle of Protection using exotic materials (15,000gp vale) to summon the creature into, and has cast Protection from Law and Protection from Evil on herself. Further she has prepared a Binding spell to trigger when the creature appears from the Gate. The CK could apply -3 for the circle, and -1 for each of the protection spells, and -5 for the Binding spell, for a total of -9 to the check.
-10: The Arcanist owns a Book of Infinite Spells, opened to a page of a spell that he has in his primary spell book. He will not incur any penalties based on not studying the spell that the book is opened to, and if the page of the book turns to a spell that currently has penalties applied, they are removed as if the character had studied from a primary source, though the spell from the previous page may now begin to incur penalties if not studied. Note that if the Arcanist casts the spell without a spell casting check, then double the normal chance of the page spontaneously turning, otherwise if casting the spell normally from memory with a SIEGE engine check, the page will not turn.[/list]

Interesting class, koralas! I'll admit I haven't delved deep into it, but I plan on it. Sor far it looks intriguiging, though! Thanks for sharing.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:53 am**

Captain Giant-Quote!!! Here to ruin the day!
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In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:49 pm**

MacLeod wrote:
Captain Giant-Quote!!! Here to ruin the day!

Nice, constructive post ya got there, hoss.
The biggest issue I see, koralas (and I hope you don't mind some criticism ), is the check for spellcasting. Don't get me wrong, the class is very interesting, but looking at your example of making the check for a 9th level spell is a little rough. At 18th level, other casting classes are enjoying their spells, error-free, while an aracnist is hoping his spell goes off without a hitch. There seems to be a lot of things that can modify the roll for a higher TN, but not a lot to reduce it.

This part is particularly interesting:

Quote:
The Arcanist casts Arcane spells, much like a Wizard. They can cast a limited number of spells per day, though unlike the Wizard, the number of spells per spell level is not determined by their level. Instead, they may cast a spells of a maximum level of their level (round down). An Arcanist may cast a number of spells equal to their level + Intelligence Modifier, per day. For example a 3rd level Arcanist with an Intelligence of 17 can cast 3 + 2 or 5 spells per day, and these spells may be of 1st level. When that caster attains fourth level, he can cast 6 spells per day of 1st or 2nd level. Further, Arcanists may cast an unlimited number of level 0 spells each day.

This is an interesting concept, to be sure. I think though, with the perceived difficulty that spell casting might prove (even with a bit of freedom the class provides) and the experience point progression roughly equal to calsses that won't have the same (perceived) difficulty as the arcanist might cause issues. In my campaign, I'm not sure it would fly. Again, I like the idea, I really do, and I like the challenge playing the class would present. Would lowering the experience levels closer to that of a druid be in order? I don't know.

But if you're happy with it, that is all that matters. Just my thoughts - take 'em or leave 'em.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:32 pm**

For the sake of co-operative constructive criticism (C cubed) what do you think of my alternate idea? (weaker spell progression plus my own spell check table) I don't know if rapidshare is a problem for anyone. I have an account there so it is only natural for me to use it. @_@
_________________
In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:46 pm**

MacLeod wrote:
For the sake of co-operative constructive criticism (C cubed) what do you think of my alternate idea? (weaker spell progression plus my own spell check table) I don't know if rapidshare is a problem for anyone. I have an account there so it is only natural for me to use it. @_@

Well, if you don't mind my criticism (and I'm sure you don't ), MacLeod, I find it a little too random. A 17th level wizard has the same chance to fail a 3rd level spell as a 6th level wizard (unless I'm reading it wrong)? That might work for stylized campaigns (ones where magic is a more "fragile" force, etc.), but I don't know how it would faire as a standard rule. And again, there's a penalty situation to the roll (damage to the caster), and no chance to add to the roll. Maybe add his intelligence modifier? Otherwise (remember, this is in the sake of "C cubed" ) I don't think I would use this rule - it just puts the wizard behind the 8-ball for no apparent reason. A chance to get additional effects? I'll pass, and not have to worry about flubbing my roll, thanks. The idea is good MacLeod, but I think there needs to be balancing factors (much like I feel for the Arcanist class in general). Hope this is helpful...I'm trying to be.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Posted: **Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:57 pm**

Remember that I said the Spell Check table would most likely have to be tailored to the Arcanist in particular. In my variant everyone levels up the same thus magic needs a bit of a handicap. I think magic should be innately dangerous and you can see that the percentage for failure really isn't that high. At high Levels Wizards are powerful fellas and I always thought some kind of limiter should be created. You should also remember that this check only applies to highly stressful situations... the CK could rule that since the wizard is so far away from the battle that he doesn't need to make a Spell Check, for instance. (also, in my variant Divine magic doesn't have to roll on this table).

But yeah, the penalty for using different spells is relative. The percentages for casting a 6th Level Spell and a 9th Level Spell are the same, yes. However, the Critical Failures will be drastically different. Thus, the CK could rule inconsequential Critical Failures for Spells that are not the Magic-User's highest Spell Level. Quick fix. And yes, I believe magic should be a bit random (20% for 2nd ~ 5th, 30% for 6 ~ 9th). This could be altered so that is goes more like; 1 ~ 3 10% 4 ~ 6 20% 7 ~ 9 30%. I just like only having two tables because the rule already requires a bit more crunch than normal spell casting.

The damage penalty is actually a less harsh version of the original C&C rule. Each 5 points of damage bumps up the chance for failure by 5%... which I think is pretty reasonable compared to an automatic failure.

A final note... An added rule allowing the Magic-User to increase his CT by 1 action in order to avoid the Spell Check (or gain a +4 on the roll) could be used to make sure the spell goes off without a hitch.

I've never liked useless escalation of numbers in pen 'n' paper RPGs so that is why everything stays the same. A different option could be to have the Challenge Base for the Spell Check equal to 5. CL could be equal to (2/Level of the Spell). The Magic-User receives his Spell Casting Attribute's modifier applied to the roll in addition to his Level as usual. Failing the Spell Check by 1 ~ 3 is a Minor Failure, 4 ~ 5 is a Major Failure and 6 is a Critical Failure.

I'd rather refer to a table myself though.
_________________
In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:30 am**

Lord Dynel wrote:
The biggest issue I see, koralas (and I hope you don't mind some criticism ), is the check for spellcasting. Don't get me wrong, the class is very interesting, but looking at your example of making the check for a 9th level spell is a little rough. At 18th level, other casting classes are enjoying their spells, error-free, while an aracnist is hoping his spell goes off without a hitch. There seems to be a lot of things that can modify the roll for a higher TN, but not a lot to reduce it.

This part is particularly interesting:

This is an interesting concept, to be sure. I think though, with the perceived difficulty that spell casting might prove (even with a bit of freedom the class provides) and the experience point progression roughly equal to calsses that won't have the same (perceived) difficulty as the arcanist might cause issues. In my campaign, I'm not sure it would fly. Again, I like the idea, I really do, and I like the challenge playing the class would present. Would lowering the experience levels closer to that of a druid be in order? I don't know.

But if you're happy with it, that is all that matters. Just my thoughts - take 'em or leave 'em.

Thanks for the input, see that is one of the things I am trying to balance out, the challenge class that is, to where it creates challenges to the casting attempts, but not make it seemingly meaningless. Converting to the SIEGE engine is where some of the issues come in. I didn't want to say, set the challenge class at twice the spell level, because (on the high end) when you can cast 9th level spells at 18th level, you are basically free to do so since your level eliminates the challenge class. Further, it means every time you earn a new spell level it has a roughly 50% chance of working. It also means that you don't have a big need to look for exotic components to increase your chance of casting successfully. Maybe I'm wrong, what do you think balance wise this would do? (For example of exotic component, a drop of Red Dragon's blood might come with a -6 to the challenge class when casting a fire based spell.)

Now on to challenge class adjustments. Those provided are samples, and there will always be more ways to disrupt than to enhance. Other things I had some notes on, using magic items of the same type, like a wand of fireballs, cuts in half the challenge class adjustment from spell level. So a fireball, instead of being +9 would be +4.5 or +5; further, it removes the effects of multiple castings of the spell between studying. So (assuming a 6th level PC has access to a WoFb), the afore mentioned Arcanist needs a 12+5=17-6-3=8+ to cast the spell. Further, so long as there are charges in the wand, it does not count as straining the character, thus it is always at an 8+. Other penalties still apply, such as not studying the spell, being hurt, etc.

Another add-on is focus items that can be prepared. These items are very rare to find, and very costly to craft. They reduce the per-level penalty by 75%, so a 4th level spell would be only +3. The hanging question is if they are prepared per spell, spell type (summoning, necromancy, etc.), or spell level. We went spell level in the end, increasing the cost and time to craft, and made the focus items unique to an individual, though they can be re-attuned at a much lower cost, though with a chance to spoil them. Further, the strain on the item was such, that through repeated use, they could be strained and fractured. The quality of the base item determined how long it would take till it failed completely. Basically every time a spell is failed to be cast, it would cause a fracture on the item, and if not repaired, enough fracture causes it to fail completely.

Again, I don't want to define to many adjustments (the class is already pretty rules-heavy), and leave most up to the CK.

These are the things I'm struggling with and really looking for some help on. I do like the idea of the Druid XP chart, and think that is a go. XP wise at 1.7m that puts them equal to a 15th level Wizard, who is just getting to 8th level spells, hrm... Not bad considering the penalties. At 3x spell level, an 8th level spell is cast at 12+24=36-18-3=15, while at 2x it is 12+16=28-18-3=7. I think that works both ways fairly well, though it seems a bit easy, especially is allowing focus items, as it would be 12+4=16-18-3=-5, so perhaps with 2x focus items are not allowed, or merely reduce the penalty for multiple castings by 50%.

What of the natural 5 or lower being a miscast? That is a 25% chance (what we used before), though I have thought of it also being a natural 1, or any modified roll of 1 or less, to be a miscast, while any natural roll of 5 or less being an unsuccesfull casting.

Ah this is why I posted here before I got to far into the rest... That is to look for some help on getting it cleaned up a bit...

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:52 am**

MacLeod wrote:
Interesting idea.

I realize you already pointed out that the bookkeeping difficulty of the class exists and I would just like to reiterate that it seems a little much. Doesn't really match the spirit of C&C but it could very well work for your group. I would recommend just an alternate spells per day progression.
My other issue is that the spell check is awfully rules heavy.

This is what I use for Spell Checks. It would probably have to be modified to use as an exclusive rule for the Arcanist.
http://rapidshare.com/files/195740239/Spell_Check.pdf

Well, the core of the class is the elimination of the spell progression chart, leaving the character free to cast any level spell that it knows for any of it's spell slots. So at 9th level a character can cast any combination of spells of levels 1-4, with the ability to cast 9+Int Mod spells per day. As a comparison if both have a 16 Int, a Wizard of 9th level can cast 5+1 1st, 4+1 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, and 1 5th level spells per day for a total of 15 spells/38 total spell levels, the Arcanist can cast 11 spells, with the possibility of a total of 44 spell levels.

As for the casting chart, I've used similar things in the past, but always keep coming back to a desire for a progressive chart. Why, simply because higher level spells are more difficult to cast. There is a chart for exceptionally good rolls (natural rolls, not adjusted ones), but I'm not sure I want to add it at this time. Perhaps, but since with the SIEGE, a natural 20 isn't always a success, I opted out of this. However, surprising things happen during miscasts, always something bad for the caster, but sometimes there are mixed results...

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:26 am**

MacLeod wrote:
Remember that I said the Spell Check table would most likely have to be tailored to the Arcanist in particular. In my variant everyone levels up the same thus magic needs a bit of a handicap. I think magic should be innately dangerous and you can see that the percentage for failure really isn't that high. At high Levels Wizards are powerful fellas and I always thought some kind of limiter should be created. You should also remember that this check only applies to highly stressful situations... the CK could rule that since the wizard is so far away from the battle that he doesn't need to make a Spell Check, for instance. (also, in my variant Divine magic doesn't have to roll on this table).

In those perspectives, it does make sense (I forgot about your uniform progression, too ). I also thought about wizards and their power levels and realized that it is a good point, to have some type of restrictions. So, yeah, I can guess I can see some of your reasons for wanting the roll. If you can get by with it in your game, I applaud you. Like I said (and I'll restate for effictiveness ) I do agree that some limitation of some sort be needed. I'm not 100% convinced that it's teh ultimate fix, IMHO...how has it worked in your games over the time you'v used it? Has it made that much an impact> If so, how?

MacLeod wrote:
But yeah, the penalty for using different spells is relative. The percentages for casting a 6th Level Spell and a 9th Level Spell are the same, yes. However, the Critical Failures will be drastically different.

I don't think I mind the penalties for failure being the same, I just have a hard time imagining a 12th level wizard having the same chance for failure as an 18th level wizard. I know you mentioned that you dieslike the escalation of numbers in PnP RPGs. I kind of agree with you on that, too.

MacLeod wrote:
A final note... An added rule allowing the Magic-User to increase his CT by 1 action in order to avoid the Spell Check (or gain a +4 on the roll) could be used to make sure the spell goes off without a hitch.

This wouldn't be too bad. I just think there should be something to add to the roll as a bonus, instead of the only modifiers being negative.

MacLeod wrote:
I've never liked useless escalation of numbers in pen 'n' paper RPGs so that is why everything stays the same. A different option could be to have the Challenge Base for the Spell Check equal to 5. CL could be equal to (2/Level of the Spell). The Magic-User receives his Spell Casting Attribute's modifier applied to the roll in addition to his Level as usual. Failing the Spell Check by 1 ~ 3 is a Minor Failure, 4 ~ 5 is a Major Failure and 6 is a Critical Failure.

I'd rather refer to a table myself though.

I was thinking of something similar. Roll standard Intelligence check when casting a spell in the same conditions you've already outlined. 12+level of the spell (so highest TN will be 21). Roll d20, add 1/2 caster level, plus intelligence mod. So, an 18th level caster, with an intelligence of 16, casting a 9th level spell has a TN of 21, and has to make a d20 roll and gets to add +11 to the roll (9 for half his level, plus int. mod. of +2). That still gives a good chance of failure in your described situations (a 45% chance of failure) and the same modifiers could be kept. Just a thought.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:50 am**

koralas wrote:
Thanks for the input, see that is one of the things I am trying to balance out, the challenge class that is, to where it creates challenges to the casting attempts, but not make it seemingly meaningless. Converting to the SIEGE engine is where some of the issues come in. I didn't want to say, set the challenge class at twice the spell level, because (on the high end) when you can cast 9th level spells at 18th level, you are basically free to do so since your level eliminates the challenge class. Further, it means every time you earn a new spell level it has a roughly 50% chance of working. It also means that you don't have a big need to look for exotic components to increase your chance of casting successfully. Maybe I'm wrong, what do you think balance wise this would do? (For example of exotic component, a drop of Red Dragon's blood might come with a -6 to the challenge class when casting a fire based spell.)

Now on to challenge class adjustments. Those provided are samples, and there will always be more ways to disrupt than to enhance. Other things I had some notes on, using magic items of the same type, like a wand of fireballs, cuts in half the challenge class adjustment from spell level. So a fireball, instead of being +9 would be +4.5 or +5; further, it removes the effects of multiple castings of the spell between studying. So (assuming a 6th level PC has access to a WoFb), the afore mentioned Arcanist needs a 12+5=17-6-3=8+ to cast the spell. Further, so long as there are charges in the wand, it does not count as straining the character, thus it is always at an 8+. Other penalties still apply, such as not studying the spell, being hurt, etc.

Another add-on is focus items that can be prepared. These items are very rare to find, and very costly to craft. They reduce the per-level penalty by 75%, so a 4th level spell would be only +3. The hanging question is if they are prepared per spell, spell type (summoning, necromancy, etc.), or spell level. We went spell level in the end, increasing the cost and time to craft, and made the focus items unique to an individual, though they can be re-attuned at a much lower cost, though with a chance to spoil them. Further, the strain on the item was such, that through repeated use, they could be strained and fractured. The quality of the base item determined how long it would take till it failed completely. Basically every time a spell is failed to be cast, it would cause a fracture on the item, and if not repaired, enough fracture causes it to fail completely.

Again, I don't want to define to many adjustments (the class is already pretty rules-heavy), and leave most up to the CK.

These are the things I'm struggling with and really looking for some help on. I do like the idea of the Druid XP chart, and think that is a go. XP wise at 1.7m that puts them equal to a 15th level Wizard, who is just getting to 8th level spells, hrm... Not bad considering the penalties. At 3x spell level, an 8th level spell is cast at 12+24=36-18-3=15, while at 2x it is 12+16=28-18-3=7. I think that works both ways fairly well, though it seems a bit easy, especially is allowing focus items, as it would be 12+4=16-18-3=-5, so perhaps with 2x focus items are not allowed, or merely reduce the penalty for multiple castings by 50%.

What of the natural 5 or lower being a miscast? That is a 25% chance (what we used before), though I have thought of it also being a natural 1, or any modified roll of 1 or less, to be a miscast, while any natural roll of 5 or less being an unsuccesfull casting.

Ah this is why I posted here before I got to far into the rest... That is to look for some help on getting it cleaned up a bit...

Forgive my shortsightedness earlier...I'm beginning to see where the high experience table is coming from. One question, first off - do you not thing 12 6th level spells at 12th level is over-powered? Sure, they cast no 5th level spells or lower, but 12 Chain Lightnings or 12 Distingrates are awful rough. Or am I reading it wrong? And my apologies - the first thing I do is ask myself, "How would I break this class?" Sorry.
Some of the modifiers I think can be consolidated and put in the hands of the CK - instead of making separate modifiers for inclement weather make this entry instead:

Quote:
+1 - +5: Inclement weather. Lower modifier would indicate moderate winds of light precipitation, where higher modifiers would come from severe thunderstorms, blizzards, and the like.

You may want to look at my method I posted a bit ago, modified for your purposes, to see if it's of any use:

Roll standard Intelligence check when casting a spell (this keeps the SIEGE mechanics alive and kicking in this procedure). 12+level of the spell (so highest TN will be 21), plus any modifiers you see fit (from your original post). Roll d20, add 1/2 caster level - or remove caster level entirely - plus intelligence modifier and any bonuses from your original post.

So...

Scenario 1 - An 18th level caster, with an intelligence of 18, casting a 9th level spell has a TN of 21, and has to make a d20 roll and gets to add +12 to the roll (9 for half his level, plus int. mod. of +3). That still gives a good chance of failure (a 40% chance of failure).

-or-

Scenario 2 - An 18th level caster, with an intelligence of 18, casting a 9th level spell has a TN of 21, and has to make a d20 roll and gets to add +3 to the roll (his int. mod. of +3). That gives a darn good chance of failure (a 85% chance of failure).

Plus or minus any modifiers set forth by your list.

Spells get easier the lower level they are, and caster level doesn't matter...only the raw power of the magic harnessed matters.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:51 am**

Lord Dynel wrote:
Forgive my shortsightedness earlier...I'm beginning to see where the high experience table is coming from. One question, first off - do you not thing 12 6th level spells at 12th level is over-powered? Sure, they cast no 5th level spells or lower, but 12 Chain Lightnings or 12 Distingrates are awful rough. Or am I reading it wrong? And my apologies - the first thing I do is ask myself, "How would I break this class?" Sorry.

Exactly, however, keep trying to cast that spell, each time you cast a spell you already cast prior to studying the spell again, you are at a +3 (1/2 the spell level) cumulative adjustment to the challenge class. (this is assuming a 2x spell level)

1st Cast: 12+12 = 24-12-3 = 9

2nd Cast: 12+12+3 = 27-12-3 = 12

3rd Cast: 12+12+2*3 = 30-12-3 = 15

4th Cast: 12+12+3*3 = 33-12-3 = 18

5th Cast: 12+12+4*3 = 36-12-3 = 21 * Impossible to score without further mods

Until you get to the 12th Casting: 12+12+11*3 = 57

A Wizard can cast 4 6th level spells at 17th level, at that point an Arcanist could cast as many as 6 chain lightning spells, baring any further modifiers.

Also, with a limited number of spells in a, and the less than perfect study from a, traveling spell book, and the penalties can add up. Requiring better components, spell focus items, etc.

Quote:
Some of the modifiers I think can be consolidated and put in the hands of the CK - instead of making separate modifiers for inclement weather make this entry instead:

Yes, I should have thought to consolidate, and ultimately the mod's are in the CK's hands.

Quote:
You may want to look at my method I posted a bit ago, modified for your purposes, to see if it's of any use:

Roll standard Intelligence check when casting a spell (this keeps the SIEGE mechanics alive and kicking in this procedure). 12+level of the spell (so highest TN will be 21), plus any modifiers you see fit (from your original post). Roll d20, add 1/2 caster level - or remove caster level entirely - plus intelligence modifier and any bonuses from your original post.

So...

Scenario 1 - An 18th level caster, with an intelligence of 18, casting a 9th level spell has a TN of 21, and has to make a d20 roll and gets to add +12 to the roll (9 for half his level, plus int. mod. of +3). That still gives a good chance of failure (a 40% chance of failure).

-or-

Scenario 2 - An 18th level caster, with an intelligence of 18, casting a 9th level spell has a TN of 21, and has to make a d20 roll and gets to add +3 to the roll (his int. mod. of +3). That gives a darn good chance of failure (a 85% chance of failure).

Plus or minus any modifiers set forth by your list.

Spells get easier the lower level they are, and caster level doesn't matter...only the raw power of the magic harnessed matters.

I like option 1, but this starts to move away from the SIEGE mechanic. Not that it isn't a good idea, but I think if I was to move away from SIEGE, I would go back to a d%. I'm not reall a fan of the second scenario, the idea of removing the level of the Arcanist from the check altogether ignores the fact that as they progress in character level, they learn to harness higher levels of power, and spells of lesser power are much easier to control.

Miscast's can get nasty, and some of the effects as far as casting goes, having the spell being attempted wiped form their mind, requiring study (either from secondary, or in worse case a Primary copy), even to the point of the caster not being able to cast until they can rest/meditate, and study again.[/i]

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:33 am**

I think a lot of this comes down to a person's desire for bookkeeping and gaming pace. I'm sure after a while a lot of the modifiers could become second nature but I don't see the idea being too popular to the crowd that C&C caters to.

Now, that of course means nothing to you... So, if it is something a player of yours is totally willing to do, that's great! But personally, a slow spell progression table in conjunction with a wide variety of spell casting ability makes for an easier to integrate class.
@Dynel: I do like the additional casting time idea, actually. Making the wizard waste a round to get out the sort of damage that would take a fighter forever to dish out seems reasonable. The only issue with offering consistent bonuses is that the big penalties are so rare (5%) that even a +1 would negate it. The CB + climbing CLs would be more in line with C&C, I definitely agree with that.
I haven't had a chance to try out the rule yet. None of my players ever want to play a Wizard... It makes it tough to gauge what is needed when I can't get anyone to try anything out,
_________________
In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:53 pm**

koralas wrote:
Exactly, however, keep trying to cast that spell, each time you cast a spell you already cast prior to studying the spell again, you are at a +3 (1/2 the spell level) cumulative adjustment to the challenge class. (this is assuming a 2x spell level)

1st Cast: 12+12 = 24-12-3 = 9

2nd Cast: 12+12+3 = 27-12-3 = 12

3rd Cast: 12+12+2*3 = 30-12-3 = 15

4th Cast: 12+12+3*3 = 33-12-3 = 18

5th Cast: 12+12+4*3 = 36-12-3 = 21 * Impossible to score without further mods

Until you get to the 12th Casting: 12+12+11*3 = 57

A Wizard can cast 4 6th level spells at 17th level, at that point an Arcanist could cast as many as 6 chain lightning spells, baring any further modifiers.

Also, with a limited number of spells in a, and the less than perfect study from a, traveling spell book, and the penalties can add up. Requiring better components, spell focus items, etc.

Okay. Now that I'm seeing the bonuses and penalties in examples, it's starting to work for me a little better. I can get a better picture of the class that way.

koralas wrote:
I like option 1, but this starts to move away from the SIEGE mechanic. Not that it isn't a good idea, but I think if I was to move away from SIEGE, I would go back to a d%. I'm not reall a fan of the second scenario, the idea of removing the level of the Arcanist from the check altogether ignores the fact that as they progress in character level, they learn to harness higher levels of power, and spells of lesser power are much easier to control.

Miscast's can get nasty, and some of the effects as far as casting goes, having the spell being attempted wiped form their mind, requiring study (either from secondary, or in worse case a Primary copy), even to the point of the caster not being able to cast until they can rest/meditate, and study again.[/i]

Actually, I thought Option 1 was almost exactly like a SIEGE check, with the only exception being only adding 1/2 the caster's level? The CL wouldn't actually be set until all the modifiers are in place, given the circumstances. So technically, the CB would be 12, and the CL would be the level of the spell plus the net modifier after all conditional modifiers are taken into account.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:05 pm**

MacLeod wrote:
@Dynel: I do like the additional casting time idea, actually. Making the wizard waste a round to get out the sort of damage that would take a fighter forever to dish out seems reasonable. The only issue with offering consistent bonuses is that the big penalties are so rare (5%) that even a +1 would negate it. The CB + climbing CLs would be more in line with C&C, I definitely agree with that.
I haven't had a chance to try out the rule yet. None of my players ever want to play a Wizard... It makes it tough to gauge what is needed when I can't get anyone to try anything out,

Concerning bolded part - Well, if there is a case where only positive modifiers are in place, which wouldn't be many, you can consider them to be not capable of failing. Consider your option for waiting a round for a +4 bonus - a non-failure is guaranteed. Maybe consider a "Natural 1", in addition to an adjusted 1, always a failure, regardless of modifier.

Yeah, about playtesting - that's my problem most of the time. I have a core group of players, and I have some add-on folks. The Core players want to get into a game and get settled, so it's hard for me to say, "Hey, guys, I need someone to play a witch (for example) to test her out." I actually had to DMPC that one, and I hate doing that.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:56 pm**

Oh yeah... Natural 1's and 20's are automatic failure/successes in my games, for sure.

I'm okay with the +4 from taking an extra round to cast the Spell because it requires some give in order to take instead of just take. As I said, I don't want the players to get too comfortable in having everything work all the time. I can't imagine any other bonuses fitting without making the roll pointless. More bonuses would require that CB + climbing CL mentioned earlier... which certainly isn't a bad idea.
Yeah, players are silly chuckleheads that I want to slap sometimes. They never appreciate anything (at least mine don't).
_________________
In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

Posted: **Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:38 pm**

Lord Dynel wrote:
Okay. Now that I'm seeing the bonuses and penalties in examples, it's starting to work for me a little better. I can get a better picture of the class that way.

Yup, now at 17th level as mentioned the Wizard could cast 4 CL's, but the Arcanist, when attempting the 1st CL would need 12+12=24-17-3=4, and the 4th CL would need a 12+12+4*3=36-17-3=16, not a sure thing by any means!

Quote:
Actually, I thought Option 1 was almost exactly like a SIEGE check, with the only exception being only adding 1/2 the caster's level? The CL wouldn't actually be set until all the modifiers are in place, given the circumstances. So technically, the CB would be 12, and the CL would be the level of the spell plus the net modifier after all conditional modifiers are taken into account.

Except for the 1/2 level thing, I'm with you there. There is enough complexity in the class already, I'd like to keep the core mechanic as written.

If I can, I'll get some more published up today.

Posted: **Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:45 am**

MacLeod wrote:
Oh yeah... Natural 1's and 20's are automatic failure/successes in my games, for sure.

I'm okay with the +4 from taking an extra round to cast the Spell because it requires some give in order to take instead of just take. As I said, I don't want the players to get too comfortable in having everything work all the time. I can't imagine any other bonuses fitting without making the roll pointless. More bonuses would require that CB + climbing CL mentioned earlier... which certainly isn't a bad idea.
Yeah, players are silly chuckleheads that I want to slap sometimes. They never appreciate anything (at least mine don't).

The key is to keep things balanced on both sides of the fence, bonus and penalty-wise. If you think you've done it, then you're good to go, I'd say.
And yeah, some players aren't appreciative at all. I have some decent ones now, fortunately.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Posted: **Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:47 am**

koralas wrote:
Except for the 1/2 level thing, I'm with you there. There is enough complexity in the class already, I'd like to keep the core mechanic as written.

If I can, I'll get some more published up today.

I admit that the 1/2 level thing is a little rough, but I didn't see it any more difficult than the spell level x3.
But yeah, I'm anxious to see what revisions you've made. Be sure to post it when you're ready!
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Troll Lord Games

New Class - The Arcanist

New Class - The Arcanist

Re: New Class - The Arcanist