Alignmentless C&C

[Aldarron]

Thanks Lord Dynal. Glad to be here

[CharlieRock]

Iam_Who_Iam wrote:
I know this has been most likely covered before but I couldn't find such a topic when I searched.

Anybody run C&C alignmentless ? If so , how did it work out for you ? Plus , if you did , did you use a personality & trait system instead ? When I finally run a C&C (or RMC/RMX) game I plan it to be alignment-less. I dislike the arbitariness (sp?) & vagueness of Alignment systems in C&C & AD&D/D&D 3.x. Though Paladium has a good one. I'd like some advice on how to work a alignment-less campaign.

You could use Palladium's. That is a good one.

Or you could borrow from GURPS system of Quirks. Just pick five things about the character at creation. "Turns a blind eye to crimes as they occur" or "Never turns down a request for help." After you've got all five you pretty much have a solid picture of their psyche.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[CharlieRock]

Maliki wrote:
I don't bother with alignments a whole lot for PCs, they normally write something down, but I don't hold them to it (other than a paladin). Players are basically the "good guys" the monsters are the "bad guys'.

I'm pretty much the same way. Sometimes , as a CK, I'll ask a player how their characters recent actions fit with their alignment. But I dont contradict them, or let the other players. Just kind of rub my chin and go "hmm, yes that is rather chaotic."
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[Lucifer_Draconus]

I may use the Palladium one as it's the one I'm most used to. I've mainly played PB RPGs & the RM group I'm in uses it for our game.But part of me doesn't want to be hampered by 'alignments' period. I'll take your advise & work out what I'll end up doing. Thanx =)
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Let me wet my blade with your blood.

RIP Gary Gygax you will be missed.

[Saarlander]

To add my few pennies on this:

As i lately started my first C&C campaign, i toyed with the idea of going alignment less, since we had lots of trouble around here due to former D&D games where the different players' takes on what this or that alignement actually meant scaled up into some heavy arguments from time to time...

And finally, i decided to tweak the whole alignment thing a bit (since i still like the idea), and changed it this way:
We are now happilly using a system with Greatness/Freedom and Generosity/Power (replacing Law/Chaos and Good/Evil), with Perennity at the center of it all.
Greatness is for characters who value high ideals, causes and enterprises who reach beyond the simple continuity of daily living.
Freedom implies free thought, and case by case consideration of facts and actions
Generosity is turned towards others, the benefit of most, and the avoidance of suffering and loss
Power is all about accepting and living with the idea that ultimately, things revolve about the means by which they can enforce themselves, be it by sheer physical force, or ultimately by nature and time
Perennity finally has things to last and go on, as long as they can work and you can live with them, even sparcely if need be, as long as it's acceptable.

So far this worked great for our game, and it was pleasant to see characters of technically opposite alignments share the same goals, but for different reasons (a Greatness/Perennity hero was inspired by respect, loyalty and admiration for their liege and cause, while the Freedom/Power companion went in because he liked the idea, the promise of adventure, and the fact someone actually DID something to enforce an idea he shared and found of value).

As a little plus, non playable, i added sort of an opposite to Perennity, to represent the destructive madness of what one would call trully evil:
Entropy, which goes far beyond the reaches of the sane mind, and is bent on slaying and ultimately destroying the things that be, to lay the world to a final, silent rest (or maybe even worse, if you go down a somewhat Lovecraftian way...)

And what also was great was to have players puzzle a lot less (or more, sometimes) about the alignment of every other NPC... as they realized there could be a LOT of combinations resulting in the same final motivations and goals...

Well, at least that's OUR take on it...
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People, i'm a German living in France, so please be forgiving about my English...

[Aldarron]

Very interesting and original Saarlander. While I have no intention of applying any restrictive personality "alignments" on my players I think you may have a better way of helping a CK develop the motivations and behaviors of NPCs. I think I will try it out. Maybe you could explain the idea of perenity a little more and how it may be working with your players. As I understand your definition it is a sort of Confucian acceptance of the status quo. If so, those would be the sort of people who would presumably be against adventuring or any sort of big change in the social order.

[Saarlander]

Quote:
As I understand your definition it is a sort of Confucian acceptance of the status quo. If so, those would be the sort of people who would presumably be against adventuring or any sort of big change in the social order.

Well, actually yes... with a little amount of subtleties.
About our use of Perenity itself

As a matter of fact, Perenity tends to lead things to last and go on, granted they work out.

Perenity, and Perenity alone, is the actual alignment of most people in my setting, all the people simply trying to live on. They move on in life to make a day worth of work in order to get food on their tables, rejoyce and relax when they can, and try neither to get killed, nor to engage in ambitious and abstract projects far from everyday life. And they want to keep it that way, more or less.

The one example i used to illustrate this to my players was about townsfolk, the typical medieval kind, faced with invasion from a neighbor land; they are no fighters, and not conscripted either yet, and in front of men in arms and armor, they are neither stupid nor zealous enough to take up a fight that would end in a waste of time and (their) blood. They might resent having to surrender to another liege if they actually like their own lord or king, but also know they are not able to change things from where they are standing right there...

Unless the invader really is a promise of a really dark, doomed future; paying taxes to the neighbor rather than their former king wouldn't change much in their lives (and maybe renaming the tavern if need be), but if their whole condition would change (from taxpayers to slaves, for example, or by handing the land over to a truly different and unacceptable church), they might very well put up a fight, one way or another, because Perenity can take lots of little changes, but will strongly resist a complete revolution.

And yes, Perene people will make really bad adventurers, or at least not long lasting ones. If something NEEDS to be done, a Perene hero might very well do the job, but he'll settle for the easiest goal that gets things right again, not bothering for the ultimate crusade, nor going on beyond the immediate threat.

And actually, this also includes the average milicians and soldiers, which have a job to do, and are often willing and ready to do it, but may also falter if facing the impossible, and are not always ready to give up their whole life without a thought.
About Perenity combined with another Aspect

In combination with any other Aspect (Greatness, Generosity, Power or Freedom), Perenity already allows true heroes to rise again (so i only dissuade PCs from taking Perenity alone as alignment). Perenity, as said, tries to have things last and resist, and this works actually great with the other aspects.

- Greatness/Perenity makes for noble minds, champions of causes, and diligent servants of their lords and gods, as well as iron willed leaders with the wellfare of nation and value at heart.

- Generosity/Perenity is an alignment of the kind of heart, the local hero and caring helper, not often resting before getting done all that can be in order to improve whatever disaster and threat may arise.

- Power/Perenity is a deadly one, since whatever this one has at heart, he will use what it takes to ensure it keeps working. Be it for friends, land or ideal of his own, if it has to be ruthless, se be it.

- Freedom/Perenity finally makes up for the free-spirited, ready to embrace a cause fitting his own heart, and to leave it in a heartbeat should things change to his dislike. Those people decide in their mind and soul what to do, and don't take orders or principles for granted, and can respect or despise them depending on what they feel about them.

So much for Perenity as we use it, to answer your question.

Actually, i came up with this new alignments for my players to give them a system that gives an indication on HOW a character would do things, leaving the WHY in the field of cultural background and, most of all, the character's own PERSONALITY. None of these Aspects (as we call them) actually forces you to fit in a certain worldview by itself, it only hints at how one might think up his approach of things. A GG (Greatness/Generosity) and his FP (Freedom/Power) companion may undertake the same quest, and even respect each others methods, as none of these Alignment combination excludes another. On the personal, individual to individual side, now, even people of the same Alignment may also hate each other's guts, because although their ways often are alike, their reasons and beliefs may very well oppose.

Also, one of the things i tried to obtain, was an Alignment system in which ALL ASPECTS would be needed to get a culture/kingdom/civilization to work: Greatness to sustend society's values, Generosity to offer the people what they need, Freedom to have room for the changes that might be needed, Power to enforce and defend, and Perenity to make it last and grow...
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People, i'm a German living in France, so please be forgiving about my English...

[Aldarron]

I like it. Thanks for sharing Saarlander.

[Saarlander]

Little addendum about our take on Alignments:

A thing i never could quite work with about the original thing was how to use the official alignment RP-wise;

Protection, Detection etc... all are things and spells characters use IN GAME, and having the Good/Evil Law/Chaos thing RPed, i always found tricky (Alignment Detection especially); casting a detection spell and then saying in character "This guy is Lawfull Neutral" kind of sounded awfully out of atmosphere for me.

What i love now as a CK is telling a player using the same spell "You sense that this man's fate is writen in Greatness in Perenity".

Maybe it's just me never getting the hang of the official thing on that point, but hey, now my players use Alignment aspects in their RPs no problem, and hearing the Cleric PC say "May the sake of our cause shield us againts blind violence" when he cast "Protection from Power" just rocks for me !

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People, i'm a German living in France, so please be forgiving about my English...