DISCUSSION: Alternate Magic System

[Scars Unseen]

Alright, so after discovering C&C and the SIEGE system, one of the things I've been thinking about is magic. One of the things that I missed about earlier editions was the creative use of spells. In 2nd edition it was pretty commonly done in the groups I played in, but I found that this was done less in the rules heavy 3rd edition, and it seems to pretty much be dead in 4th. Now I am looking at a rules system that would favor the old approach again, but I thought I would take it even further.

I have a basic idea, and thought it would be fun to any other interested people involved in the creative process. The idea is to get away from the tradition of magic being accomplished exclusively by spells. In fact, the system borrows a small bit from 4th edition D&D by relegating specific purpose spells to a ritual system. The main of magic would be less defined and more open to creative manipulation.

I was thinking of dividing magic into 4 categories:
Minor Magic: These are your prestidigitations. They don't have any combat relevance(as opposed to the 0 level spells of 3E) and are mostly there to add a bit of magical flair to your character. No defined spells, and no limits to how often they can be used. A good example would be making your spellbook float in the air and turn its own pages for your convenience.

The main limitation of this category is that it can not be used for anything that is actually useful in a challenge of any sort. You could use a minor magic to float your pen over to your hand, but you could not use the same magic to lift the key from the sleeping guard's pocket. You would have to use the next level of magic, which is...
Major Magic: This is what is most often used in an adventure. In order to give magic users more flavor, I would recommend the use of themes. Elemental, necromancy, nature, weather, and the like. From there, you simply describe what you want your magic to do, the CK determines what you roll, any modifiers that apply and the specific in game effect, and then you see what happens.

The use of this sort of magic would be limited in some fashion, both in frequency of usage and in magnitude of effectiveness. Perhaps, a level by level(or some division thereof) description of how effective magic should be, with some examples included, would be sufficient for magnitude. For frequency, there is the traditional option of x/day, or we could use something a bit more flexible, like tying usage into constitution(PC gets weaker with with frequent usage), or a combination of both(having the option of going beyond your allowed uses per day at the expense of your own health).
Spells: I liked 4E's idea of rituals, so I thought I would include it as well. This is where you find your more specific magics, requiring formulae and materials sacrifices. Like minor magic, spells are not used in combat. Unlike minor magic, they have in game effects. The uses of this category can be as varied as major magic, but cannot be spontaneous. This is where you would fit in things like summonings, magical creation, magical enhancement, and anything else that either has a long term effect or is generally accomplished in a non-hurried manner.

The final category isn't really a category at all, but rather an exception. It's pretty much what is referred to as "going nova." It's a last ditch attempt to overwhelm your enemies before you are overwhelmed yourself. It falls under the same restrictions as major magic, except that the possible magnitude is significantly higher. As such, it should carry extremely stiff penalties to prevent it from being constantly used(and thus becoming mundane). My idea is to impose two conditions on its use.

First of all, there is no distinction between friend and foe. This is a primal, instinctual summoning of raw magic, so it lacks the finesse that a mage's intensive study and practice normally allow. As such, it would be a pretty good idea to warn your companions to take cover first because of the second condition.

The second condition is that immediately after using this, the caster falls unconscious and cannot be woken until they have gotten enough rest, as determined by the CK. This means that if the PCs are in dangerous territory, someone is going to have to carry the mage out to get rest. If you wanted to be more harsh about it, you could also say that the mage has a fever that must be tended to, requiring not only rest, but care from a healer(not necessarily a cleric).

So, anyone want to weigh in on this idea and maybe help flesh it out and balance it?

[serleran]

If you have the d20 Epic Level Handbook (only because its already written in terms familiar to D&D players -- otherwise, you could use something like the Shadowrun Grimoire which covers spell creation, or even Aysle for TORG) I would suggest checking out the concept of spell seeds which, basically, allow you to create any magical effect you want. Whenever I implement a rule like you are proposing, that is, basically, what I do. The more effects, the harder it is and more likely it goes "wild" and eats you up.
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Serl's Corner

[Lord Dynel]

I like your thoughts, scars. I particularily like the thoughts on prestigidation - I'm also working on a alternate wizard and may have to "borrow" a few ideas from your post!
But yeah, I agree that spellcasting in 3.x got a little antiseptic and mechanical after a while. It definitely did lose its feel from the older days. If you decide to write up any more on this subject (or reveal what you have already written up), I'd love to see it!
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[Go0gleplex]

There were a Trilogy of books published back in the early 80s...Master of the Five Magics, Secret of the Sixth Magic, and Riddle of the Seven Realms by Lyndon Hardy. REALLY wish I'd kept the books...they were quite good.

But they broke magic into the schools with some pretty complete rules on how they operated, such as Thaumatury; The Law of Sympathy- Like produces like. Here's the wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_the_Five_Magics

If you can find them...I think they would be useful for along the lines you're thinking.

Been watching Avatar lately and the Elemental Bending has got me thinking on an alternative way of doing things as well, but that's still percolating.
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[Aldarron]

Youv'e got some interesting ideas. I never liked the Vancian magic system in D&D and I think there is definitely room for some creative ways of handling magic. I rather like Tori Bergquists spell point system posted in his house rules on the www.cncplayer.net/ site because of the ease with which it allows use of old material. Another post I found really very interesting that you might get some ideas from is http://microlite20.net/node/66 a microlite 20 site, although I have not given any serious thought as to how it might work in C&C.

[redbeard]

What I'd like to see is a way that wizards and other spellcasters could modify spells and spell effects with a SEIGE check.

Of course the best, most flavorful and flexible magic system I've played in was Ars Magica. Somewhere I saw a d20 conversion that might could be ported into C&C.

The trouble with that is then the game becomes all about the wizard. Magic use becomes both too involved and too powerful. I'd love to see a way that you could simplify the mechanics and tone down the power so the game remains about the party rather than one character.

Something interesting: 3.5 had an expansion (Complete Arcane? that or Complete Mage) that had a set of feats called a 'reserve spell' feat. Basically, they were tied to themes (something fire, acid, necromancy, air, etc.) If you had the specific themed feat and a memorized spell of that theme, you had a magic ability in that theme based on the power of that memorized spell.

So something interesting application of the reserve spell feat to C&C might be:

Wizards pick a theme, a specialization. Then, when they had a spell memorized in that theme, they would be able to use that stored power to do lesser effects according to that theme until that power was released. (With a seige check of course).

[Taranthyll]

Cool ideas, Scars. I agree that a lot of the wonder and imagination has been sucked out of spell casting in the recent editions of D&D. Magic User used to be my favourite class to play back in 1st edition AD&D. I never chose spells like magic missile; rather, I loved finding creative uses for underutilized spells. I'm currently playing a wizard in a 4th edition campaign and all the flexibility is gone from the spell system. Mostly I just stand around shooting magic missile every round - I might as well be an archer.

Scars Unseen wrote:
The use of this sort of magic would be limited in some fashion, both in frequency of usage and in magnitude of effectiveness. Perhaps, a level by level(or some division thereof) description of how effective magic should be, with some examples included, would be sufficient for magnitude. For frequency, there is the traditional option of x/day, or we could use something a bit more flexible, like tying usage into constitution(PC gets weaker with with frequent usage), or a combination of both(having the option of going beyond your allowed uses per day at the expense of your own health).

One way of placing limits on magic use might be to have spell casting cause fatigue. Perhaps, after casting each spell, have the wizard make a Constitution SEIGE check. Each subsequent spell cast in an encounter would add 1 to the CL of the CON check. If the caster fails the check they become fatigued and cannot cast any further spells until they rest.

[jaguar451]

redbeard wrote:
What I'd like to see is a way that wizards and other spellcasters could modify spells and spell effects with a SEIGE check.

Have you seen Treebore's houserules? He has some items for SEIGE checks for modifying spells. I have it at home, so could send later if you don't find it (in the Online Game Forum, look for threads started by Treebore.)

[serleran]

Here is mine, for about the 8th time on these boards:

Alter Magic (Intelligence or Wisdom): Powerful spellcasters have the ability to alter their spells, whether it be area of effect, duration, or any other variable, including damage, turning an ordinary spell into a specific, single-use variety. Each variation has a difficulty associated with it, making the check harder, and multiple changes are possible, with cumulative penalty. A failure causes the wizard some serious problems, making spell casting impossible for 1 round per level of the spell that was attempted, and there is a draining of Constitution, as indicated on the table below. Also, as shown, there are things the wizard can do to increase chance of success, but it should be nearly impossible to make use of them on any consistent basis. A spellcaster gains this ability at 5th level.

Effect / Difficulty / Temporary Constitution Lost

Increase Range by Base* / 2 / 1d3

Base Range Increased to Higher / 4 / 1d6

Do not need Verbal / 1 / 1d3

Do not need Somatic / 1 / 1d3

Do not need Material / 1 / 1d3

Duration Increase to Higher* / 3 / 1d3

Double Duration / 4 / 1d6

Triple Duration / 6 / 1d8

Quadruple Duration / 8 / 1d10

Quintuple Duration / 10 / 1d12

Permanent Effect / 20 / 2d8 (success results in 1 permanent)

Casting Time* / 2 / 1d3

Instant Casting / 4 / 1d6

Affect +1 Level or HD* / 2 / 1

Switch from Caster to Another / 5 / 1d4

Switch from Touch to 10 / 3 / 1d3

Double Area of Effect / 6 / 1d6

Triple Area of Effect / 9 / 1d8

Area of Effect to 10 Radius / 2 / 1d3

Additional Die of Damage* / 3 / 1d4

Additional +1 Point of Damage* / 1 / 1

Base Die to Higher Type / 5 / 2d4

Save Penalty of 1* / 2 / 1d3

Allow No Save / 16 / 1d10

Cast in Armor to AC 14 / 6 / 1d3

Cast in Armor to AC 16 / 9 / 1d6

Cast in Armor to AC 20 / 12 / 1d10

Maximum Effect / 10 / 1d12

Double Maximum Effect / 20 / 3d8

*Multiples are allowed of this type, to a maximum of the spells level

Example: A 5th level wizard wishes to increase the range of Lightning Bolt, a 3rd level spell, by the base amount. This may be done 3 times, since the spell is 3rd level.

Control Effect / Bonus

Instant Casting to 1 Round / +2

Double Casting Time / +3

Triple Casting Time / +5

Double Material Component Value / +2

Triple Material Component Value / +4

Area of Effect / +1

Reduce Damage by 1* / +1

Allow a Save / +3

Save Bonus of +1* / +1

Unique Spell to Caster / +3

Within a Pentacle / +2

Minimize Effect / +3

Per Hit Die of Sacrifice* / +1

Obviously, abilities which don't appear could be added, like "Change Type of Damage" / +3 / 1d4 or "Auto-Recast" +12 / 2d6
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[Scars Unseen]

Interesting system, Serleran. might try that out some time. I was kind of going in a different direction though. What I am really trying to do is make a system that shies away from strict numerical classification and goes for creative thinking and interpretive ruling.

Let's say that someone is playing a fire mage. He could have picked another theme, and need not have even restricted himself to such a narrow focus, but he wanted to go with fire. At lower levels, I would make it pretty much effortless to light straw on fire, raise a cloud of debilitating smoke in a limited area or heat up an unattended piece of metal. I would make it more difficult to affect or damage a willful creature(or any of its possessions) or light a piece of thick wood, such as furniture, on fire.

Maybe later on the character could make fire pursue a target to distract it, boil the water inside a creature, melt stone/metal, consume the air around an opponent, cauterize a wound, light(or snuff) every light source within a building simultaneously and so on. The idea is to spend less time thinking of what spell to use and more time creatively using magic to suit the circumstance. The player thinks of what he wants the magic to do and the CK decides what the difficulty, consequences and specific game effects are.

Aside from fire, a player could come up with any theme that the CK agrees to. Some examples could include:

weather witch

ship mage

elementalist

telepath

summoner

illusionist

necromancer

royal protector(specializes in protecting another from harm, even at the expense of the caster's own health)

chaos mage

diviner

artificer

chronomancer

Consequences for magic could vary and be custom tailored to your campaign. For instance, if I was to run a Shannara campaign, I might throw in constitution drain as well as requiring a charisma check when you cast. Failure still allows the casting but increases the effect beyond the caster's intent and bestows a magic addiction penalty. Every point of magic addiction bestows a cumulative -1 to future addiction checks. Addiction can be lost by forgoing magic use at a rate of 1 point per day of abstinence, but each day requires an addiction check to avoid using the magic.

[serleran]

Yeah, that's why I suggested the spell seeds (almost the only thing I like about d20) before.
I prefer the less numeric for this, as well, but don't find it hard to make it that way either.

Anyway... here is something I was working on for a different interpretive casting system based on Norse runes.
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[redbeard]

jaguar451 wrote:
Have you seen Treebore's houserules? He has some items for SEIGE checks for modifying spells. I have it at home, so could send later if you don't find it (in the Online Game Forum, look for threads started by Treebore.)

I think this is the thread

Wizards:

SIEGE checks can be used to alter spells being cast. A SIEGE check can be made to change the energy type of a spell. For example, to change a fireball to a electric ball, ice ball, etc... you make a TN 12 check + your level to beat a CL = to the level of the spell. So to change the fireball to ice would be a CL 3, so beat TN 15.

Similar checks can be done to maximize damage, CL spell level +3

To double range, CL spell level +3

To increase number of targets effected, CL spell level +3 per additional target (example spell, Charm Person to effect two people instead of one)

Failure, in all cases, loses you the spell. Roll a natural 1 and pray for survival if it causes damage.

SPELL CASTERS:

A new class ability for ALL spell casters, except Paladins.

Divine/Arcane blasts. These are a pure energy attack that any spell caster can use every other round as long as they do not cast any spells on the round in between. Yes, this means all day long. This is because that round is a recharge/gather the power round. This attack requires a "To hit" roll versus the targets AC, but the casters BtH for purposes of this attack is equal to their level and its modified by their DEX. Damage is 1d4 per level of the caster and requires a "item" as the component for this ability. It costs 20 GP per dice of damage. Typically a cleric uses their Holy Symbol and Arcane Casters most frequently make a wand.

As usual, I do allow a SIEGE check to cast this every round, it will be CON based, and failed checks will cost a temporary loss of one CON point to simulate the exhaustive nature of wasting the energy as well as gathering it so quickly. The CL will equal the amount of dice you want to do for damage, and the base TN will always be 12, since this is now a "Class Ability" for all spell casters.

Lost CON is regained at 1 point per hour of rest, or from a Lesser Restoration.