Troll Lord Games

This is not a thread to 'bash' the Monk class in C&C but I'm looking to tweak the Monk to be more 'Western' in feel.

Conventionally, a the medieval monk has his duties in the monastery with focus on the spiritual accompanied with regular good honest labor in terms of various duties required for his closed community. I'm really simplifying matters. However, the 'warrior monks' were essentially knights such as Templar or the Teutonic Knights that participated in such things like the Crusades. Once again I'm simplifying here.

In C&C... we have Clerics -- basically your priests and to a degree, warrior priests. You've got your Knights which are akin to the Cavalier which we saw introduced in AD&D -- this is your mounted warrior. We even have your Paladin which is a blend of the Cleric and the Knight (Cavalier).

Does anyone have any thoughts on how to integrate a Monk to better fit the ranks of the existing Cleric, Knight, and Paladin?

Looking at the existing class... half the powers could be easily ditched but Mind over Body, Purity of Body, Still Body, and Still Mind could be kept. To a degree, Fast Healing could be reasoned and Unarmored Defense could be changed as some sort of Weapon based Defense. In other words, specialized training in a dedicated weapon of the order.

I'm envisioning a 'warrior monk' that is essentially a non-spell casting Cleric combined with a Knight. However, once again, this puts us pretty close to a Paladin. It might be easier to just drop a few abilities for the Paladin and get a similar thing.

I want a Monk but without it's eastern martial influences. I want a Monk that is different enough from the Cleric, Knight, and Paladin to warrant it's existence but I want it to make sense while being a desired class to play.

I get the C&C bard... and what I'm hoping is to have a 'western-style' monk that people get.

Does anyone have *any* ideas for this?

M
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Here's a snippet from my Greyhawk C&C house rules on a Keolish monastic order, which is non-eastern to a degree. I'll try to dig up my nordic type fighting lodges document somewhere too. I went on a huge monk kick some time back, quit using the "base" monk and tweaked the class for various orders. No one could be a "base" monk and had to choose which order they belonged.
Brothers of Tedium

Sitting on a low hill within Keolands barony of Dilwych is a squat keep surrounded by an unmanned wall. This unassuming place is the home of a simple monastic order known as the Brothers of Tedium, devotees of Lendor, the Prince of Time.
Background

Varin was born into an affluent mercantile family of Niole Dra. A studious young man, Varin took to heart the teachings of Lendor, the Suloise god of time and patience. He eventually found a sense of serenity in the more esoteric dogma of his faith and applied it to fighting techniques he had studied in his youth while traveling abroad.

Upon Varins return to Keoland he used his inheritance to build the small keep which would serve as the monastery for his new order and began to teach his techniques to those willing to learn. Over time, the brothers built a formidable library in which the monks spend a considerable time in study of ancient histories and languages. Several works on the history of the Suel migrations and Keolish lineages can only be found in this monastery, penned by the scholar-monks.

Originally viewed as an oddity in the kingdom, the Brothers of Tedium continued in their teachings uncaring of the thoughts of the world outside their walls. Eventually, more conservative, minor nobles realized the benefit of utilizing the well-learned brothers as advisors and a small amount of prestige became attached to the monastic order.


Dogma

The Brothers of Tedium teach patience in all that they do as well as the importance of a strong mind and body. Some examples of Varins teaching include:

A weak mind is incapable of sustaining a strong body.

Time itself is unending. With patience you can observe times course and best determine the proper actions to reach your desired outcome.

The impetuousness of youth robs many a man of wisdom, but in time they will learn the value of deliberate and thoughtful action.
Martial Style

The fighting style used by the brothers is primarily defensive in nature, focusing on throws and evasion. The seemingly slow and deliberate movements of this style are often misleading to the monks foes.
Game Information

Knowledge: Brothers of Tedium should be allowed to add their class level to intelligence checks involving history, noble lineages and heraldry (particularly regarding the noble houses of Keoland) and other scholarly areas.

Style Modifiers: Due to the defensive nature of their fighting style, Brothers of Tedium gain a +1 bonus to their AC. Upon reaching the 6th level and gaining a secondary unarmed attack a Brother may forfeit his primary unarmed attack to make a Dodge maneuver that round and still make an attack. To do so he cannot make a move action during that round and gives up his primary unarmed attack. By doing so he gains a +2 modifier to his AC for up to three attacks in that round and can still make his secondary unarmed attack.

You could make monks somewhat like bards, in that they know a great deal of information, like a sage almost.
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Serl's Corner

I think that making the Monk fit in a more "Western" style in the C&C/D&D gamut of classes will require a complete modification of the class abilities down to the very concept of the class.

What's making the monk feel the way it does is the very concept of the unarmed warrior/martial artist.

I feel that serleran's proposition of something of a sage concept, or maybe a non-spellcasting healer concept, like Cadfael, or something akin to other Monk archetypes in the Middle-Ages, or both/more, is what I'd shoot for, conceptually.

Then, I'd rebuild the whole class from the ground up.

I disagree that one needs to change the class mechanics or rebuild the class to make it lose it's eastern "feel". Feel is in the fluff. Rewrite the fluff and change the class. Then all you need to do is change the names of some of the class abilities so something with a more apporpiate feel.

The following is a sample of my Fhokki "monks" for Kingdoms of Kalamar.
Dhakkar

The Fhokki art of Dhakkar is an unarmed form of combat consisting of grappling, joint locks, leverage throws as well as close quarter strikes. Most Fhokki men are familiar with the basic concepts of this fighting style as it has been part of their culture for generations.

When the Fhokki tribes first migrated to the harsh, sub-artic region west of Lake Jorakk life was difficult and they had to rely heavily on each other to survive. When every member of the community was a valuable resource who helped ensure survival through the harsh winters the death of a single gifted hunter or warrior was a heavy loss to the tribe.

Dhakkar began as a non-lethal method for the Fhokki to settle disputes or feuds, a contest of strength and prowess which wouldnt result in the loss of life. As time went on it developed into a distinct style of its own and young warriors would challenge each other to contests of Dhakkar in order to gain a small measure of fame and respect among their tribe. It was also taught so that the Fhokki warriors had at least a small means of defense in combat should they be disarmed or their weapon break.

In modern times Dhakkar still remains a part of the Fhokki heritage but has become more of a recreational practice. Many cities in the Wild Lands still hold Dhakkar competitions during various holy tides or festivals.

In the harsh land of Torakk the art of Dhakkar remained an important part of their culture. During the three year war with the humanoid tribes who tried to force the Torakki from their homeland it became even more important not to lose valuable warriors to infighting so Dhakkar continued its traditional use and began to evolve.

Torakki oral tradition accredits the first use of Dhakkar in actual warfare to a particularly beleaguered aronak during the three year war against the humanoids. The story goes that this aronak was fighting a running battle against a numerically superior orcish war band. For days they fled the orcish aggressors utilizing hit and run tactics in an attempt to prevent being overrun. The orcs eventually trapped the Fhokki with nowhere to run, most of its warriors were unarmed by this point, either their weapons broken in the countless skirmishes over the several days of fighting or lost while helping their fellow tribesman escape.

Knowing that this would be their final stand the aronak faced the orcs with grim determination, those warriors left without weapons using the only thing they could, Dhakkar. It is said they fought as if they were possessed that day and routed the orcs long enough for them to find an escape route. The battered orcs did not pursue.

During this grim period in Torakki history battle were not fought simply with Torakki warriors going out to engage humanoid foes. The entire aronak would go to the field of battle and as the warriors battled against the orcs and other humanoids the women children and elderly would cheer their champions on and tend to the wounded. They served as visual reminders to the warriors that they were not only fighting for their life but for the lives of their family and those they held dear. If they failed on the field of battle the consequences would be dire for their loved ones.

The presence of their families on the field of battle served to spur the Torakki to great feats of daring and courage. Some particularly cocky warriors began entering combat weaponless, relying on Dhakkar to dispatch their foes. With their entire tribe watching the battle, these reckless Torakki would gain great prestige and word of their prowess would spread.

During this time period Dhakkar evolved to include methods of fighting an armed opponent. Holding your opponent close denied them easy use of bulky weapons and those expert in the use of Dhakkar could deliver powerful knees and elbows at such close quarters. The crude armors used by a majority of the humanoids were not heavy enough to make these strikes ineffective. For those who were more heavily armored, handaxes and daggers were often used to assist in dispatching them.

As the war progressed, practitioners of Dhakkar began using plant dyes to paint their skin and would clothe themselves in the skins of bears and wolves to be more fearsome in appearance. It was not uncommon to see a handful of these warriors fighting alongside the more traditional warriors in many of the conflicts.

Over the years a number of lodges have risen in Torakk that teach the art of Dhakkar. As the years passed Dhakkar continued to change and evolve, eventually gaining a pseudo-spiritual leaning from the shamanic beliefs of the aronaks and their shamans. Now, each lodge follows an animal totem from who they gain their inspiration and many of them are served by a shaman of that totem as well. In many ways these lodges are similar to the monastic and martial orders of monks in other parts of the world.

Dhakkar lodges are almost unheard of outside of Torakk. One notable exception is the Torr-Stav lodge located north west of Narr-Rytarr on the shore of Lake Jorakk. They follow the wolf totem and have several members who are also affiliated with the Sentinels of the True Way. Their leader, a massive Fhokki named Ryjhek, holds an annual Dhakkar competition in Narr-Rytarr. Particularly talented participants are often invited to train at the lodge.
Dhakkar Lodges

If one were to refer to a Fhokki practitioner of Dhakkar as a monk they would stare at you in confusion, the term is not native to their culture or language and means little to them. In fact, there is no single name that the various Dhakkar lodges make use of. Each lodge refers to its practitioners by a different name. There are five different lodges in Torakk, each to a differing totem animal; the bear, wolf, lynx, boar and eagle.
The Lodge of the Bear

Among the Torakki, members of this lodge are referred to as Torr-Gral or Brother Bear.

The Torakki have long held the bear in high esteem. A powerful warrior, a she-bear protecting its cubs was among the most fearsome things a hunter could encounter on the cold plains.

Torakki folk-lore holds that the spirit of a bear as undying thus giving it a connection with health and healing. Many Torr-Gral seek to emulate this ability and study the arts of herbalism and the healing properties of herbs.

The strength and endurance of the bear is legendary and most Torr-Gral are not as agile as members of other lodges. They seek to emulate their totem by focusing on the ability to land mighty blows and endure physical hardship.

The bear lodge is also renown for its brewing ability as they produce a very high quality mead. Advanced Dhakkar practitioners in this lodge often learn the art of the Grimlikk (Bloodthristy) where they drink large quantities of alcohol enabling them to accomplish extraordinary feats of strength.

The Torr-Gral lodge is located approximately 50 miles northeast of Norr Bharr along the shore of Lake Jorakk. The lodge itself is a great hall made of logs. It is surrounded by several smaller structures of cut logs that serve as the homes of the approximately 30 Torakki living there.

The current head of the lodge is an aged Torakki by the name of Kovstock the Grizzled. He is in his early fifties and has led the lodge for a little more than a decade. He is a fierce combatant and lost his right eye in a fight against an orcish war-chief in the Jorakk mountains. Kovstock weilds a mighty weapon known as "Grandfather's Paw". It is a Gralkar made with the skin of an ancient dire bear known among the Torakki as the Grandfather. It is reputed to increase it's user's strength and send icy chills into anyone it strikes. He is advised by the bear shaman Falrakk.

Torr-Gral members are all proficient in the use of the Gralkar (Bear Claw), a weapon developed to emulate the mighty bear paw. The Gralkar is an oversized gauntlet shaped like a bear paw and covered with fur from the mighty beasts to complete the effect. It extends almost fully to the elbow and only covers the tops and sides of the arm and fist. The hand portion is formed like a fist, possessing an iron crosspiece inside allowing the user to wrap his hand around it , making a fist that fits into the weapon. Extending from the knuckles of the Gralkar are four roughly 10 inch iron claws. All Torr-Gral are proficient with the Gralkar.
The Lodge of the Boar

Members of this lodge are known as the Torr-Nokk or Brother Tusk.

The boar is a symbol of ferocity and strength of will among the Torakki and the Torr-Nokk emulate that in their fighting style.

Members of this lodge are similar to those who follow the way of the bear in that they prize strength and endurance over quickness and agility when they fight. They often charge head first into battle without fear or concern. During the wars against the humanoids it was often the Torr-Nokk leading the charge, breaking holes in the enemy lines giving the other warriors a chance to pour through and attack the then exposed shamans and mystics.

The Torr-Nokk have never had as large of a following as most of the other lodges but its members have always been extremely close knit and present a unified front in all that they do.

The lodge is located along the forested shoreline of Lake Adesh between the upper and lower Byth rivers. It is lead by a particularly brutish man named Shrokk. Shrokk, while well versed in the art of Dhakkar, is not overly bright. He is wise enough to know his limitations however and seeks the advice of his shaman Hydar before making any major decisions regarding the lodge.

The Torr-Nokk are well liked in the southern portions of Torakk due to Shrokk encouraging its members to seek out various aronaks near the lodge to aid in their defense.

Thanks all...

I've thought about the angle as Serl suggested... many monks, depending on their order and duties, spend their lives in libraries. They would make excellent sources of information. Obviously, depending on how one's setting is set up, this role could easily be capitalized on. Bard's fill this role nicely as well, but the knowledge of a Bard could easily be very different than that of a scholar-monk. Once again, this would depend on the campaign.

I tend to agree with Danger Dwarf with a lot he has contributed but Benoist has a valid point with regards to the current Monk's flavor. As it stands right now the Monk is heavily influenced by the East!
Does the class have to be rebuilt from the ground up for a Western style of Monk? I will grant that it is a solution and very do-able.

Could the class have whole bunch of supporting material written for it (as in the fluff) to justify the class in the game? Of course! This *is* a fantasy game after all and I'm restricted only by my imagination.

However, I've decided to walk something of a tightrope with the class. Can I strip some of the abilities out... add a couple things in... with a dash of fluff to rationalize class and relevant abilities abilities?

Maybe -- it's more of a challenge since 'my views and thoughts' and 'existing class' seem to be pulling from different directions. Doing that and trying to keep the class different enough is the real challenge.

Danger Dwarf's posts did give me an idea that might help with the monk and that is a better focus.

The Order of the Teutonic Knights of St. Mary's Hospital in Jerusalem had the purpose of aiding Christians in their pilgrimages to the Holy Land as well as establishing hospitals to care for the sick and injured. Now these were admittedly more like knights or soldiers sometimes viewed as some sort of 'Warrior Monk'.

This doesn't invalidate other type of monks but the orders that the monk was part of could conceivably define their role. Beekeeper, Soldier, Scribe, or Mystic... In all cases, very much a 'spell-less' cleric. But perhaps being a bit more specialized than the cleric in their respective duties.

At that point though, you almost have the reverse of the Specialty Priest from 2nd Edition!
I should note that this is simply something I'm playing with for fun but I'm appreciating the insights from my fellow Crusaders.

M
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Another way to view the monk would be to make them a subtype of priest -- that is, the cleric is the fighting warrior type and the monk is the "holy man" who is better against the undead, can exorcise demons, and so on and so forth -- they might not even have a spell list, but innate immunities / resistances, coupled with virtues and taboos. Really, there are several ways to codify the monk in a different light... the problem is picking one.
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Serl's Corner

If memory serves, Bowbe himself promises some westernized variants on the monk in a forthcoming product. From his very brief description and my ratty memory, it sounds like he's got two types: one based on something like ancient Greek pankrationists, and the other from a street-gang-like heritage.

Don't have any immediate thoughts on how to structure those but I find both notions very appealing, especially the pankrationist one - my homebrew world is more late-ancient/early-medeival in flavor.
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In my 2e campaign I developed a monk class that combined aspects of the ninja and the assasin classes with the european cloak and dagger tradition. The idea was that one of the major gods (Dosevin - ala oo7) was consumed with curiosity and spying and so instructed his followers called "Agents". I have not yet tried to convert it to C&C, but I'll post it anyway for people to tinker with if they like.

Agents of Dosevin

Intelligence 13

Dexterity 13

Agents of Dosevin are priests who have successfuly undergone years of rigorous and ascetic training at one of the god Dosevin's temple/academies. The agents, like their god, are dedicated to the art of intrigue, spying, and the acquisition of valuable information. To this end the agents acquire not only divination spells, but also a great deal of covert and combat skills. They are very dedicated, disciplined, and highly sought after by the powerful and ambitious for their services. An agent will never reveal information learned in the service of a past employer, and any agent who was even rumored to have broken this code of confidentiality will be relentlessly hunted down by other agents.

Agents can wear any armor but their weapons are limited to ones that can be concealed. Therefore Agents do not train in the use of any weapon longer than 1' total, with the exception of the crossbow, which is sometimes used for assassinations.

Agents use the Ninja Spirit Warrior experience progression chart as per the Complete Ninja's Handbook.

Agents have the following thieving skills and percentages at first level.

Pick Pockets 0%

Open Locks 0%

Find/Remove Traps 0%

Move Silently 20%

Hide in Shadows 20%

Detect Noise 10%

Climb Walls 40%

Read languages 0%

and

Escape Bonds 15%

Agents also receive 60 percentage points to distribute as they please among these skills, but they may not assign more than 30 percentage points to any one skill. With each level progression, Agents receive 30 more percentage points to distribute. No skill can be raised above 95%.

Escape bonds is a skill unique to agents and may be affected by nature of the binding/confinement. The DM will assign the appropriate penalties or bonuses on a case by case basis. This supersedes the Escape non weapon proficiency in the Ninja Handbook.

In addition, Agents gain the following abilities:

When falling an agent will receive no damage at

4th level if the drop is less than 20' ant the agent is

within 1' of a wall;

at 6th level if the drop is less than 40' and the agent

is within 4' of a wall;

at 9th level if the drop is less than 80' and the agent

is within 6' of a wall;

at 13th level falling any distance if the agent is

within 8' of a wall;

all provided the agent is able to make contact with

the wall.

An agent of 6th level or higher is treated as having

an 18 intelligence when faced with any mental attacks,

due to the agents training in mental discipline.

Agents receive a +1 per level to all saving throws

versus poison.

Agents have the same backstab ability as thieves.

Agents cast spell from the priests Divination sphere

only. Unlike all other priest, they cannot cast any

of the general spells.

Agents have a special hand signal language by which

basic information can be passed to other agents.

Agents cannot read magic or cast magic spells, but like

all other classes they can employ magic weapons and

devices.

In addition to the Priest and General groups, the

Agent may also acquire non weapon proficiencies from

the rogue group.

When an agent decides its time to retire, they usually become instructors at one of Dosevin's academies. They do not acquire large holdings or build strongholds.

Not wanting to mimic our world eastern cultures in my game world. I have been toying with the idea of making monks an elf only class...a strange warrior caste within elven culture.

Mythago wrote:
Not wanting to mimic our world eastern cultures in my game world. I have been toying with the idea of making monks an elf only class...a strange warrior caste within elven culture.

Hmm...I'm getting visions of the Siswa from the module B7 Rahasia. Might be something you want to look into, unless this is where your inspiration is coming from.

As far as western monks go, I'd love to see a playable class based on these. One PC in a 3.5 game played an Expert and modeled him after a western monk. I always get a vision of William of Baskerville (from In the Name of the Rose) when I think of an adventuring western monk.

I always thought of adapting the "cloistered cleric" NPC class from Dragon #68 with some tweaks to a playable class, I've just never had enough ambition.
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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

not seen module B7 Rahasia...will look into it. sorry off topic but I want to adapt some of the 3.5 Ranger and Bard magic ability to elves too...

cheers

Lord Dynel wrote:
I always thought of adapting the "cloistered cleric" NPC class from Dragon #68 with some tweaks to a playable class, I've just never had enough ambition.

Some quick suggestions for re-creating a viable cloistered cleric:

Use the cleric class as your basis for this class. They'd get spells and the Turn Undead ability as per the cleric class.

The class is not proficient in the use of armor or shields.

Limit weapon proficiencies to dagger, knife, quarterstaff, sling, dart, mace (light), flail (light), hammer (light) and club.

Lower BtH and Hit Point progression to that of rogues.

Give the class the bardic Legend Lore and Decipher Script abilities.

Give the class the Delay/Neutralize Poison ability of rangers.

At 5th level the cloistered cleric gets the Purity of Body ability of monks.

At 7th level the cloistered cleric gets the Fast Healing ability of monks.

At 9th level the cloistered cleric gets the Still Mind ability of monks.

I like the examples that DD has made & probally come up with my own variants . But wasn't there some alternate & historical based monk class created by colin or someone else ? I think there was a link to such a document/page at grey elf's page.
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If you're looking at a non-spell casting variant "western" monk...some "abilities" as ideas;

Consider most orders of monks pray...a lot. So they may be a constant state of grace or blessed.

Singing...who doesn't enjoy a good gregorian chant session, eh? This might bolster the morale of the group and hinder evil, sort of like a bard.

Healing skills...not the magical variety, but the herbalistic bandage brigade allowing them to speed healing or even provide that 1d3 instant relief for fresh wounds.

Historians...they taught peasants the basics and kept the local histories in many cases. So a monk may be just the person to talk to about that local urban legend. They might also be able to decipher scrolls and languages as well.

Perserverance...monks often denied themselves many comforts or luxuries, with those striving to be more worthy of heaven being down right spartan. This might make them tougher, used to resisting the elements, temptations (charm), disease, etc.

A monk who was true to his calling/faith (atypically) would often times place himself in harms way in the defense of the meek/helpless. This "faith of the martyr" could possible make a difference to AC or such as long as the monk was still in a state of grace/ good graces with their diety.

Some monks were so true to their faith that they eventually became saints. As a Saint, thier diety may be able to act upon the world directly through them in some ways. Weapon is holy, lay hands, aura of life, etc...according to the particular tenets of their faith.
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Huh, I just learned that Gygax was apparently thinking of reimagining the monk along lines apparently similar to my "Agent" class posted above. He said:

"What I was contemplating was a non-Oriental sort of Monk character to replace the clearly Eastern martial artist one featured. The class would likely have been a sort of dedicated warrior-spy with a few elements of the original Monk class, new abilities of more European sort to round it out. that way the Scarlet Brotherhood would not have had to lost its warrior-monk component. All the notes I had for the new classes are gone, so don't ask for details." Posted at http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/20 ... ition.html

How bout them apples

Interesting tidbit, sir...thanks!
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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Aldarron wrote:
Huh, I just learned that Gygax was apparently thinking of reimagining the monk along lines apparently similar to my "Agent" class posted above. He said:

"What I was contemplating was a non-Oriental sort of Monk character to replace the clearly Eastern martial artist one featured. The class would likely have been a sort of dedicated warrior-spy with a few elements of the original Monk class, new abilities of more European sort to round it out. that way the Scarlet Brotherhood would not have had to lost its warrior-monk component. All the notes I had for the new classes are gone, so don't ask for details." Posted at http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/20 ... ition.html

How bout them apples

That is pretty cool... thanks for sharing and including your 'agent' class as well. It's something I'll certainly be tinkering around with in the next couple of weeks (time permitting).

M
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