Morale?

Aldarron · Post by **Aldarron** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:30 pm

So I'm wondering if anyone has developed any interesting or creative ways for checking morale of monsters and NPC's or if folks are just making it up without a check.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:48 pm

Aldarron wrote:
So I'm wondering if anyone has developed any interesting or creative ways for checking morale of monsters and NPC's or if folks are just making it up without a check.

If you want a general answer to this question by people who aren't moderators, you might repost this question in the Rules Laws and Chaos forum.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:37 pm

Wrote some for the CKG.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:19 pm

Moved to The Rules, The Laws and the Chaos so that more people can respond to this thread.
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anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:35 pm

The best way is to imagine what you would do if you were the NPCs or the monsters, rather than rolling the dice and then obeying whatever they say.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:38 pm

Tenser's Floating Disk wrote:
The best way is to imagine what you would do if you were the NPCs or the monsters, rather than rolling the dice and then obeying whatever they say.

Yep... keep it simple and use a bit of sense. Above all -- have fun!

M
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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:34 am

moriarty777 wrote:
Yep... keep it simple and use a bit of sense. Above all -- have fun!

M

Yep. If I'm an orc and the PC party just decimated 3/4 of my warband in the first 2-3 rounds of combat, I'm sure as hell not sticking around so they can slaughter me too.

R-
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:35 am

That orc aint hard core.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:43 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
That orc aint hard core.

What orc is?
But flip it; what if 3/4 of the PC party is wiped out by an orc warband, are they going to stick around? Not likely.

R-
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:00 am

I always liked morale, and was never clear as to why it disapeared from D&D.
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:49 am

Disappeared? It was never in the original game unless you used Chainmail for the combat system. Unless I'm horribly mistaken, AD&D had morale in relation to hirelings, but not monsters. Usage with monsters was a rule exclusive to the BECMI D&D line.
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Hrolfgar · Post by **Hrolfgar** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:25 am

AD&D morale rules were for henchmen, hirelings, npc opponents and monsters. Base morale for monsters was 50%+5% per hit die over one.

FWIW I use the Mentzer set rules, at least until the CKG is released.

jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:26 am

If one wants to roll, wouldn't a CHA check be called for? CL based on how good/bad things are going....

Hrolfgar · Post by **Hrolfgar** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:31 am

And OD&D had rules for loyalty scores for npcs. Morale checks were made on reaction table.

jaguar451 wrote:
If one wants to roll, wouldn't a CHA check be called for? CL based on how good/bad things are going....

That would work too.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:32 am

Quote:
If one wants to roll, wouldn't a CHA check be called for?

If you want practically every monster running or surrendering in fear, sure.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:03 pm

Critters don't have Charisma. They have M.

jamesmishler · Post by **jamesmishler** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:27 pm

It's been on the back burner, but Morale is one of the "crunchy C&C bits" I've been working on.

Monster Morale was of major importance in Moldvay/Mentzer D&D; it was only of lesser importance in AD&D 1E due to the lack of organization in the DMG.

DMG pg. 67: "Morale checks are used to determine the amount of will to fight in non-leader NPCs, and can be applied to both henchmen and hirelings of character types and groups of intelligent opponent monsters... Base morale is 50%." (Emphasis mine)

D&D used a 2d6 system; AD&D 1E used a percentile system; AD&D 2E used a d20 system. I prefer a bell-curve based system, like the 2d6 system, and am trying to make it work within the standard Siege system... which essentially operates on a modified 3d6 bell curve system.

So Morale was intended for use by the DM to track monster willingness to fight in both games. Dave Cook recognized the importance of Morale such that in AD&D 2E it became a much more important factor, and each monster, like in D&D, was assigned a Morale score.

The lack of Morale in 3E and 4E is the reason why every combat becomes a grind; by eliminating the random Morale factor, unless a DM bothers to think about it, he runs his monsters like many gamers run their PCs... fearlessly! Thus, combat is often to the death, when the vast majority of combats should end with many of the enemy fleeing (a condition which counts, for XP purposes, equivalent to having "defeated" the foe in D&D or AD&D 2E, though not in AD&D 1E).

The problem with Morale in C&C, as Serleran mentions, is that using the supposed Siege characteristic of Charisma as a base for Morale just won't work (now I'm agreeing with Serleran, the Apocalypse must be at hand). So one must go back and assign a morale statistic to each monster, based on the nature of the creature, its size and power, and general willingness to fight.

That is what I am in the process of doing (or rather, was, again, it is on the back burner). It will eventually be released as a generic C&C PDF...
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GameOgre · Post by **GameOgre** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:13 pm

I use cha saves plus HD for monsters. The secret I have found to make this work is to know when to make that roll. For groups I use the 50% and 75% marker.

If the party has slaughtered 50% of the monsters and still has everyone up and killing I roll. At 75% I roll again.

I do not roll for all monsters. Only those I feel might flee.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:15 pm

M saves man! M saves!

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:26 pm

I am in the "just decide" camp.

however it is helpful to have an idea of what to take into consideration for making such a decision.

50% and 75% are a good start. Using historical battles, many armies broke with less than 20% losses, so maybe deciding after only 2 or 3 go down is also realistic.

Another thing to take into consideration is leadership. Groups often have a leader, and as long as he is standing he may keep his people from routing.

I also go so far as to decide if they are a "warrior tradition" where dying in battle is the best way to "live", much like the Spartans, "No retreat, no surrender!"

Another thing I consider is any god they probably worship. If its a god that may sacrifice them on their altars for running they may prefer to die quickly in battle, which is often likely the case for goblinoids and orcs.

So these things are examples of what I take into consideration when I decide if they retreat or not.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:30 pm

I always had a soft spot for Morale mechanics. They were always part of the game for me, prolly had something to do with starting out with the BECMI set. It was just part of the rules.

I'd use 'em in C&C. I know I'm prone to the "Two parties enter, one party leaves!" mentality.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:10 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
M saves man! M saves!

That's how I'd do it.
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Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:01 pm

Treebore wrote:
I am in the "just decide" camp.

however it is helpful to have an idea of what to take into consideration for making such a decision.

50% and 75% are a good start. Using historical battles, many armies broke with less than 20% losses, so maybe deciding after only 2 or 3 go down is also realistic.

Another thing to take into consideration is leadership. Groups often have a leader, and as long as he is standing he may keep his people from routing.

I also go so far as to decide if they are a "warrior tradition" where dying in battle is the best way to "live", much like the Spartans, "No retreat, no surrender!"

Another thing I consider is any god they probably worship. If its a god that may sacrifice them on their altars for running they may prefer to die quickly in battle, which is often likely the case for goblinoids and orcs.

So these things are examples of what I take into consideration when I decide if they retreat or not.

That pretty much how I do it.

R-
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Aldarron · Post by **Aldarron** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:57 pm

Thanks Everybody. It was the Modvay D&D set that I cut my teeth on and perhaps for that reason it just seems logical to me that monsters should have some inherent morale rating, to be modified by the CK according to circumstance. It should also be a reflection of the general character of the beastie rather than based on just HD or something. Without having morale checks, at least sometimes, CK's will probably develop habits about how monsters behave in combat - I did back in 1e days. I might tend to have them break and run alot whereas someone else might usually have them fight to the death. That's fine I suppose but it might be more fun in the long run, and maybe even easier for the CK, to let the dice randomize the situation a bit more. So I'm thinking I'd like to see James Mishlers "generic PDF" when he gets around to switching burners. In the meantime though....

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:01 pm

Well, I asked Steve if he cared that I share the stuff I wrote for the CKG on this subject. Unfortunately, that was the first he'd even heard of it (I guess I'd sent it to Davis * instead a while ago)... so, the answer was basically "not yet." Oh well. Not hard to come up with a lot of ways to do it, from the completely detailed to the very abstract. Me, I like something in between.

* - Actually, it seems I had posted it in the CKG forum.
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Hrolfgar · Post by **Hrolfgar** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:28 am

Yeah a Charisma check for monster won't work so good for them, being that monsters are notrious for having bad charisma I guess. I've been thinking about using a BECMI like system using 2d10, instead of 2d6. 2 = already running, 20 = will never will run.

jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:31 am

Well, just a CB of -10, +1 per HD, Friend standing, leader, ..., -1 for each friend killed, outnumbered, things looking bad, ....

Aka, pick a percentage that seems reasonable and roll for it when you deam appropriate.

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:54 am

I would think that the adventure would decide the "break point" for the 'monsters'. A group of kobolds or goblins are going to react a lot differently if cornered in their lair than they will if at a raid or encountered in the open. Some creatures are also more prone to cowardice than others (based on various sources over the years), so the typical kobold, known to be cowardly without numbers may have an earlier break point than creatures with high determination and discipline such as hobgoblins.

One way to deal with this would be similar to (braces for the rotten fruits) miniature skirmish wargames...wherein the leader rolls a CHA check modified as applicable to retain control of their minions...if it fails, then the CK would/could worry about individual CHA saves to see which minions route...or simply make a second CHA check to see if the entire group remaining routes, the leader who failed probably leading the way...

Thus minions benefit from more skillful leaders...and should the leader flee, saps their confidence.

Bonuses might be +3 CL for defending their lair; +2 if they see a racial enemy; -4 if outnumbered by the enemy; etc.

more brain fodder for the hulu hordes...
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ghostSmacker · Post by **ghostSmacker** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:27 am

Aldarron wrote:
It was the Modvay D&D set that I cut my teeth on

Yup, me too. In fact I use a modified version of that system for any rpg I run, simply because I don't think the choice between routing or fighting to the death is simply a case of common sense. There will always be the tough guy who has a moment of self-doubt or the lowly kobold that becomes enraged at the wholesale slaughter of his comrades. I always thought morale was a neat system for modelling this.

I just pick a number based on the flow of combat, leadership, discipline, religious conviction, propensity for violence etc, etc and make one quick roll (2d6) when the players look like they are getting the upper hand.

anonymous · Post by **anonymous** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:20 pm

Death to morale checks! Death to any rules that take power away from the CK to put it in the hands of dice. No surrender!

Morale is a rule from wargaming, not applicable to anything else. Am I right in thinking that morale checks are unique to D&D - no other game I can recall off the top of my head kept that rule?

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