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How do you run your game ?

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:44 am
by BudaZoa
Would you allow a pieced armor be placed over a suit of armor?

I.E:

A Chain shirt placed over a suit of leather armor?

A breast plate placed over padded armor?

A leather coat worn over a chain shirt ?

I would think that the answer is no, but in some cases it does seem like logical and could be managed.

Allowing this might allow for a custom look to a characters armor but also allow for characters to cheese up the armor class rating systema.

Re: How do you run your game ?

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:55 pm
by gideon_thorne
BudaZoa wrote:
Would you allow a pieced armor be placed over a suit of armor?

I.E:

A Chain shirt placed over a suit of leather armor?

A breast plate placed over padded armor?

A leather coat worn over a chain shirt ?

I would think that the answer is no, but in some cases it does seem like logical and could be managed.

Allowing this might allow for a custom look to a characters armor but also allow for characters to cheese up the armor class rating systema.

Yes, to all of the above. Because every one of these is historically accurate.
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:03 am
by dungeonfish
I think a padded or leather base is part of chain and heavier armors.

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:12 am
by slimykuotoan
Yeah, plates, etc. include padding already.
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Re: How do you run your game ?

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:17 am
by koralas
BudaZoa wrote:
Would you allow a pieced armor be placed over a suit of armor?

I.E:

A Chain shirt placed over a suit of leather armor?

A breast plate placed over padded armor?

A leather coat worn over a chain shirt ?

I would think that the answer is no, but in some cases it does seem like logical and could be managed.

Allowing this might allow for a custom look to a characters armor but also allow for characters to cheese up the armor class rating systema.

Sure, after all, historically it is accurate that various types of armor were worn together, but mostly because you needed to. Imagine wearing chain mail without a padded shirt beneath it already. Simply, the chaffing against the metal would terrible, it can be done with a standard shirt, but even this can be nigh on unbearable, especially if you look at double mail. Many of the heavier types of armor are already stacked and should be considered so when thinking along these lines.

As mentioned, quilt or padding is generally worn beneath chain mail, additional layers of this type would make heat build up a great challenge, not to mention the added weight as all of the cloth is soaked with sweat. While there are historical references to quilt (padded) armor over chain, it is generally worn with a heavy shirt beneath rather than other quilt layers.

Now, adding soft leather, or cuir-boulli jazeraint (scales) over chain was common for a time, and perhaps can add +1 and +2 respectively to AC (half values rounded up), however, I would think that the EV additions will offset the bonus of adding the additional protections for an adventuring character that must be more mobile and agile than a standard rank and file foot soldier. Now doing something along these lines is really a fluff kind of thing since a Chain Shirt with Cuir-Boulli over it would be AC +6, with an EV of 6 (8-2 for being worn), while a Full Chain Suit is AC +6 with an EV of 3 (4-1). Same AC value, double the EV, worth it?

When looking at the heaviest of armors, Plate Mail, and Full Plate, they also already are riding on top of padded suits and/or chain suits. So adding additional would not help overmuch as it would slow a person down by weight and bulk. For example, what most consider when talking of Full Plate armor was from 1500-1600. This armor consisted of heavy padding over which was strapped plates formed specifically for the wearer. Pauldrons protected the shoulders with brassarts covering each upper arm, a coudiere covered the elbow join with vambrance protecting the lower arm, and heavy gauntlets. A chain skirt covered by taces protects the thighs, and cuissart, genouilliere, and grives protect the upper leg, knee and lower legs, with sabbaton cover over the feet. The helm is expertly crafted to allow movement with maximum protection. If using a hit location system, a detailed description of armor would be needed, the obvious weak points of this armor are the arm pits, groin, and joint at the back of the knees. The total weight of this armor was easily 80 pounds, and performing strenuous tasks is difficult and taxing. Fighting for 15-20 minutes was close to the maximum without taking a break. Earlier forms of full plate could weigh 60-70 pounds, but were often more difficult to move in.

Now, if you were to add some sort of weapon vs. armor adjustments, insuring you have the proper armor stack becomes more important, granting the best defensive bonus of the stacked types. Even still though, keep in mind the comments above as many are already normally stacked.

Of course, all that being said... hey it is your game, and you should do what you want to make the game fun for you and your players. Remember the goose and gander though! If the players can think of, and actually do it, so can your NPC's!!!

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:09 pm
by GameOgre
Like it has already been said most of the heavy armors already have this. Whatever you decide is fine for your game but just remember whatever works best is going to be used by mot warriors ect..

If you let chainmail and leather stack (and the penalties are worth it) then most npc's and creatures that use armor will be aware of it and the party while maybe better armored will face higher armored foes as well.
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:07 pm
by serleran
I really don't care what they "look like" since it has zero impact on the game and how it plays. Beyond that, if someone tries to "cheese" the armor system, I have a simple solution -- best applies.
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:02 pm
by Galadrin
I've always assumed chainmail armour incorporated leather and cloth into it's design. No one actually war raw chains on their flesh, think about how comfortable that would be!

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:42 pm
by Buttmonkey
No.

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:46 pm
by Omote
Nope. It is assumed that each armor entry in the PHB has all of the neccessary pieces to make the AC what it is. At least that is how I see it.

-O
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:45 pm
by koralas
serleran wrote:
I really don't care what they "look like" since it has zero impact on the game and how it plays. Beyond that, if someone tries to "cheese" the armor system, I have a simple solution -- best applies.

Actually, I quite disagree with the first statement. How a player visualizes their character certainly does have have an impact on the game. It affects how they play the character in many ways, and the level of fun had in playing a character that you visualize as "looking cool." Does the appearance of the armor have in impact on the game mechanic? No, but it can have a definite impact on the enjoyment of the player.

As for "cheesing" the armor system, I have more mixed feelings. There are definite historical examples of multiple armor types. In fact, many are precursors to the heaviest of armors, or the common soldiers version of those armors. If wearing Quilted armor over chain that was over a heavy shirt provided no additional protection, then why do it? If soft leather over chain, with a Cuir-bouilli jazeraint skirt was of no benefit, why carry the extra weight? These are both examples of period armor for noble warriors and foot soldiers alike. So why did they do it? To augment protection in vulnerable areas is one, another to to enhance the protective nature of the armor against various types of attacks. For example, chain is very good against slashing weapons, and good against chopping weapons; however, it is poor protection against weapons that are blunt or pointed for thrusting. Quilt/padded armor (true armor, not just the lighter padding used under heavier armors, can be up to 4 inches thick) offers quite a bit of protection against blunt force weapons, and leather less so. As such, stacking one of these two types of armor with chain offered significant improvements, though with the drawbacks of the weight and bulk added.

Now with an abstract combat system, weapon vs. armor type has no meaning. So "cheesing" the system is difficult to gage, thus the recommendation of at most 1/2 the ac adjustment of the lesser armor. Also, common sense must be applied when looking at what armors can stack. If done for just min/maxing I would be less likely to allow it, if done for fluff and flavor, have at ya!

Google searches can turn up many great ideas, and give a sense of what has been done in the past.

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:00 pm
by serleran
Quote:
How a player visualizes their character certainly does have have an impact on the game.

OK, but it has absolutely no impact on the mechanics or systems of the game. It doesn't change how the SIEGE Engine works. It doesn't grant additional abilities to the character. It just lets Bubba feel "cooler" that he has spikes growing out of his codpiece.

Well, maybe that would...

Anyway, the point is: you have to basically add something to this to make it "rules" worthy -- maybe you're using something like "personal temperature" from OAD&Ds Wilderness Survival Guide and you "need to know" if the PC has cotton, wool, or silk underroos. Maybe you're playing a "realistic" game and want to make characters make Constitution checks every 3 days to see if they get a disease from wearing the same sticky gambeson for 12+ hours of combat without ever cleaning it... so, yeah, sure, they can be reasons to get that detailed, but not at my table, which was the question.
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Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:38 pm
by CharlieRock
serleran wrote:
I really don't care what they "look like" since it has zero impact on the game and how it plays. Beyond that, if someone tries to "cheese" the armor system, I have a simple solution -- best applies.

I'd agree. Same would go with strapping on multiple shields across your back and carrying one and strapping bucklers to your feet etc. Best AC applies. Then again, if your system uses different ACs vs piercing, blunt, slashing damage then strapping on extra sets of armor , while not increasing the AC, would grant those benefits from each set worn.
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:48 am
by koralas
serleran wrote:
OK, but it has absolutely no impact on the mechanics or systems of the game. It doesn't change how the SIEGE Engine works. It doesn't grant additional abilities to the character. It just lets Bubba feel "cooler" that he has spikes growing out of his codpiece.

Well, maybe that would...

Anyway, the point is: you have to basically add something to this to make it "rules" worthy -- maybe you're using something like "personal temperature" from OAD&Ds Wilderness Survival Guide and you "need to know" if the PC has cotton, wool, or silk underroos. Maybe you're playing a "realistic" game and want to make characters make Constitution checks every 3 days to see if they get a disease from wearing the same sticky gambeson for 12+ hours of combat without ever cleaning it... so, yeah, sure, they can be reasons to get that detailed, but not at my table, which was the question.

Quite true, the "cool" factor of visualizing your character doesn't have an impact on the game mechanic, and I do believe I stated that in my comments above, if you would read that entire paragraph. Now, after reading that whole paragraph you will find that I am talking about in that part of the post is ROLEplaying not ROLLplaying. That is after all what this game is about, it is a game of imagination. If adding that level of detail to your character, helps to fuel your imagination, to help visualize your character and situations you may find him/her in will naturally increase your enjoyment of the game. And anything that can do that is a good thing. That is the point I was making.

That said, can you make a workable ruleset for it? Sure, why not, especially in your personal campaign, if you so wish. In fact I gave a basic example of a way to do so... the 1/2 ac adjustment of the lesser armor. So lets see what you really get by doing such... hrm, a Chain Shirt (AC +4, EV 3) and a Steel Breastplate (AC +5, EV3) in this case would end up AC +7, EV 6, hmm that's the same AC as Plate Mail, oh wait, that is basically what it is! Only, since it was not crafted to be utilized together, the EV is higher than that of an actual suit of Plate Mail armor. That is the final EV of the impromptu plate mail is 6-2=4, where an actual suit of Plate Mail is 4-1=3.

And alas, when I was speaking of heat issues it was from a real world perspective. It is meant to provoke thought, I was not referencing any of the AD&D supplements or suggesting detailed rules for such. Perhaps in your world your characters need not have any consideration for the environs in which they adventure, and the means in which they go about it, but some may want to consider such factors. In fact, quite often, the environment can be quite a challenge to overcome.

Do I run a "realistic" game requiring things such as you suggest? No. Would I want to? No. But would I allow a knight in full plate to ride across a desert without repercussion? No. Even in a Fantasy RPG, common sense still has a place.

You are correct the question was "would you allow..." However, the tone of the question leads one to think that BudaZoa is asking for input beyond a simple yes/no. As to why/why not, and how it could work without completely throwing off the balance, that is "cheesing", of the game.

So lets keep the boards civil, and keep the discussion lively and constructive.

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:13 am
by serleran
I read it -- I chose to not comment because I had already agreed. You took my comment out of context (or perhaps added one) and assumed it had something to do with what it did not. I had not said what a player imagines is irrelevant -- I said it had no effect on how the game is played, which, in serlerance means "no game rule changes." I need to write a lexicon to avoid these types of misconstrued "put my foot in your mouth" statements.

But, anyway -- this thread is about what one does in their own game. I've answered what I do in mine. Thread over for me.
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:25 am
by BudaZoa
Thanks for all the input from everyone.

I am aware that the heavier suits utilize some of the lesser armors as a base. I was asking for two possible situations ( this was asked at some point in my campaign and these two reasons came to my mind ):

A: Someone trying to customize a unique suit of armor to stand out distinctively from what's the norm in a campaign and

B: A class restricted to use some of the lesser armors trying to peice together a suit of armor which is allowable through several granted by the class.

Since I don't see anything within the rules concerning this I simply don't allow piecing but, should a character roleplay out why he is wearing it or it is detailed within a backround, I may see fit to allow it.