Troll Lord Games

*slings poo*
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

Fiffergrund wrote:
*slings poo*

Come on dude, throw your own analysis in here. Or do I need to get Josh to come goad ya?
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Oh, you mean post something on topic? Ha!

Others have covered the Ranger angle in the same fashion I would cover it. I don't want to be redundant.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

I agree with Fiff.
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Serl's Corner

Oh, and to me, the Ranger tracking ability is not supernatural in nature. It's just mundane tracking knowledge, training, and experience. It's impressive, but it's not magical. Think of Billy in "Predator". That's what a good ranger can do.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

Treebore wrote:
You know thats a good point, and I would say at some point (6th level?) a Rangers tracking ability should enter into being within the realm of magical ability.

That's a good point, also, Tree. I think, iirc, that this happens in 3.x when the ranger gets to a certain level (and I just checked - I couldn't find anything, but I swore I remember seeing it somewhere). But yeah, an eventual ability that would allow tracking magical passage would be nice.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Fiffergrund wrote:
Oh, and to me, the Ranger tracking ability is not supernatural in nature. It's just mundane tracking knowledge, training, and experience. It's impressive, but it's not magical. Think of Billy in "Predator". That's what a good ranger can do.

Well, that depends on how you define 'intuition'. That extra quality that goes beyond training, knowledge, and experience, that leaps beyond logic, and can pull right guesses out of the air even with inadequate data.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

I dunno about you, but any guy who can track a gaseous vampire has to have some pretty mighty tracking skills...
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Serl's Corner

serleran wrote:
I dunno about you, but any guy who can track a gaseous vampire has to have some pretty mighty tracking skills...

I think a half-orc ranger with their enhanced sense of smell could follow the flatulent vampire with ease.

Hence, the mightiness of the nose. There are more things on a vampire than wings which flap in the night.
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Serl's Corner

serleran wrote:
I dunno about you, but any guy who can track a gaseous vampire has to have some pretty mighty tracking skills...

Sure, the ranger can use the signs and effects of the billowing vampire as he passes to track with.

After all, a noxious wind has many secondary reaction effects.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

serleran wrote:
I dunno about you, but any guy who can track a gaseous vampire has to have some pretty mighty tracking skills...

Pheww Wonder what gave it gas in the first place?
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I would argue that a vampire in gaseous form can't be tracked using the ranger's Tracking ability.
Different strokes and all, but I don't like the can of worms opened when mundane things become "magical" in nature.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

I agree with Fiff on that one.

Fiffergrund wrote:
I would argue that a vampire in gaseous form can't be tracked using the ranger's Tracking ability.
Different strokes and all, but I don't like the can of worms opened when mundane things become "magical" in nature.

*smiles* So, I guess a vampire in gaseous form, under your interpretation, would not disturb the local wild life, nor have its presence put such critters on alert?

There's nothing 'magical' about it in that case, just the ranger noting the signs of nervous animals in the presence of a predator that is outside their ken.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* So, I guess a vampire in gaseous form, under your interpretation, would not disturb the local wild life, nor have its presence put such critters on alert?

Is the the vampire doing that or is it the ranger and his loud ass party following him?

Quote:
Different strokes and all, but I don't like the can of worms opened when mundane things become "magical" in nature.

It is no more "magical" than Sherlock Holmes deducing the perpetrator of a crime based on nothing more than a word on a wall, for example. There is mundane, and there is extraordinary. I would classify the ranger's tracking skill as the latter -- there are things he can do, deduct and locate, based on his knowledge of the thing he is tracking (ie, where would such and such seek shelter, how would it get there, what might it do to backtrack) that allows him to follow what others would find impossible... because, for them, it is impossible -- they simply do not know what they're looking for, or even how to look. It is not a perfect ability, naturally, since it requires a check for success, and that check can be severely modified against the ranger based on circumstances... but, it is something, in my opinion, the ranger is designed for, intended to do, in fact. If we do not allow the tracking of some "magical" things, then the ranger is weakened -- can he follow a bird in flight, or locate a swimming alligator?

I say yes, at penalty.

Others can disagree.
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Serl's Corner

DangerDwarf wrote:
Is the the vampire doing that or is it the ranger and his loud ass party following him?

I assume the ranger can tell the difference between sounds of natural life being disturbed by natural life, vs unnatural life.

Animals have a wide variety of signals for different types of danger after all.

Nothing mystical about it, unless one counts a 'bump of intuition' as mystical.
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Peter Bradley

Nah, I'm a firm believer in intuition and gut insitcts and think that should play a role. But, when tracking something like the gassy vampire it is easy to misread the signs when there is no physical trail. Even a successful check would have a % chance to lead the characters to something else in my game.

Ahhhhh! It wans't the vampire that spooked the deer it was this MASSIVE HUNGRY TROLL! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Or....

The disturbingly "animal loving" elf. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

DangerDwarf wrote:
Nah, I'm a firm believer in intuition and gut insitcts and think that should play a role. But, when tracking something like the gassy vampire it is easy to misread the signs when there is no physical trail. Even a successful check would have a % chance to lead the characters to something else in my game.

Ahhhhh! It wans't the vampire that spooked the deer it was this MASSIVE HUNGRY TROLL! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Or....

The disturbingly "animal loving" elf. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

*chuckles* I still maintain that a mist of anti life would cause quite a different reaction than a plant like lumbering troll creature, and definitely different than an elf who is invisible in a natural environment cause they are more friendly too it.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Yeah, but they are Rangers, not Jane Goodall. Creepy vampire skeert and Creepy Troll Skeert would only have subtle nuances that most would never pick up on, even by kickass ranjah guy. Well, most kickass ranjah guys anyways. I'd let Tarzan roll.

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* So, I guess a vampire in gaseous form, under your interpretation, would not disturb the local wild life, nor have its presence put such critters on alert?

There's nothing 'magical' about it in that case, just the ranger noting the signs of nervous animals in the presence of a predator that is outside their ken.

If the passage of a gaseous vampire startles animals, there won't be any there when the ranger arrives. They will run. Quickly. And they will hide. And yes, the ranger may notice that, but it's possible that could occur for any number of reasons, including the presence of the ranger and his bumbling clod friends. It's certainly not a strong enough indicator that would allow a ranger to follow a discernable trail.

This also assumes the vampire is outdoors. What about indoors? What if animals aren't predisposed to pay attention to very light mists? What if it's foggy in the forest? What if it's smoky?

Like I said, I think it's a can of worms best left unopened.

[edit: obviously games differ, this is just how I'd handle it.]
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

Fiffergrund wrote:
Like I said, I think it's a can of worms best left unopened.

But but but... how do you fish?
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, but they are Rangers, not Jane Goodall. Creepy vampire skeert and Creepy Troll Skeert would only have subtle nuances that most would never pick up on, even by kickass ranjah guy. Well, most kickass ranjah guys anyways. I'd let Tarzan roll.

*smiles* Please ignore the assorted snickering of various mountain man and bushman types I know then.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* Please ignore the assorted snickering of various mountain man and bushman types I know then.

Holy *&%T! You know troll and vampire hunters??
Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* Please ignore the assorted snickering of various mountain man and bushman types I know then.

I thought we were talking about C&C Rangers, not mountain men or bushmen.
Note: I'm in the camp that views Rangers as akin to Army Special Forces who infiltrate the battlefield, hunts the enemy out and destroys them*.

DangerDwarf wrote:
I thought we were talking about C&C Rangers, not mountain men or bushmen.
Note: I'm in the camp that views Rangers as akin to Army Special Forces who infiltrate the battlefield, hunts the enemy out and destroys them*.

There's no practical difference in my mind. Tracking is part and parcel of what mountain men and bushmen are capable of. Not to mention having a working knowledge of relevant flora and fauna.

And nothing in the army ranger interpretation above contradicts what I am saying.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

gideon_thorne wrote:
Not to mention having a working knowledge of relevant flora and fauna.

Working knowledge and Subtle Nuance KNowledge are two different things though.

Subtle fear nuances in animals is specialized, working knowledge is not.

*slings poo* There's your physical trail!
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

DangerDwarf wrote:
Working knowledge and Subtle Nuance KNowledge are two different things though.

Subtle fear nuances in animals is specialized, working knowledge is not.

This is why we have 'levels'. *swings in with the +10 axe of logic*
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley