A different system for primes

imneuromancer · Post by **imneuromancer** » Thu May 07, 2009 3:08 pm

I was thinking of several threads that pop up in the forums every now and again, including:

1) are three primes for humans too powerful?

2) should all class abilities be primes?

3) should some character classes (I'm lookin' at you, Ranger!) have their primes changed?

4) isn't +6 maybe too high for primes? Maybe they should be +2 or +3?

5) Characters end up not being varied from one another because of the way the Prime system is structured.

Add to this the following:

1) in low-level old skool (i.e. D&D, AD&D, etc.) there are a lot of demi-human cahracters. If you are playing high-levels you see a lot of humans because of level limits

1a) Can we somehow have no level limits, but somehow have the same feeling as old skool D&D?

So here is a thought for a new way to do the Prime mechanic:

* Get rid of primes

* Each character now gets points to put towards bonuses to particular attributes, mechanically used similar to how primes work

* characters get 4 points to distribute at first level, one per level after that

* humans get 1 extra point to distribute per level

* the ceiling on points is 6 points per attribute.

Example: Mr. Ranger the human starts at first level. He puts 2 points toward STR, 1 point to WIS (for tracking), and 2 points toward DEX. Like using primes, he now gets +2 to any STR checks, +1 to WIS checks (like tracking), and +2 to DEX checks. When he gains a level, he adds one to WIS and one to CHA, so now he is +2 to STR, DEX, and WIS, and +1 to CHA checks.

The Math:

Demi-humans will "even out" at 9th level, when they get 12 points (i.e. the equivalent to two primes).

Humans would "even out" at around 7th level when they would have 17 points (near the 18 of having three primes). it isn't until 6th level that they would get the 6 extra points that they WOULD have gotten at first level if they would have had three primes, instead. Thus, low-levels would give a slight advantage to demi-humans until about 6th level, where humans would then excel them.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu May 07, 2009 3:25 pm

Interesting, hoss. That would definitely put a lot of the issues of primes to rest. I don't know if I'd go with 6 points to start. Maybe three.

The only issues I see (and it probably won't be an issue for most) is that there's a bit of recordkeeping involved. I'd probably keep the system as-is, but there are merits to your ideas. Nice job!
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imneuromancer · Post by **imneuromancer** » Thu May 07, 2009 3:43 pm

Actually, it is 4 (or 5 for humans) at first level. one (or 2) points per level after that.

The ceiling of 6 points is so that you don't get someone putting all of their points in one attribute. So no matter how many points you have, you can only put 6 points in DEX, for example. This would encourage players to spread around their points.

As to record keeping, I think it would add only a trivial amount, but would get rid of arguments #2 and #4 which ADD to record keeping when primes/abilities/class levels are (highly) situationally applied. The more you can keep the bonuses and their application uniform (but allow flexibility in how you GOT those bonuses) the easier the game will be but the more each character can be unique (without overdoing it, old-skool style!).

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu May 07, 2009 3:48 pm

Actually, this is somewhat like what I was doing for Ruins and Radiation (tm), only, there are no levels, so you use XP to purchase the modifier. But, in very small doses, since XP awards are greatly reduced to make it simpler mathematically (that is, there really is no reason to award 1000 XP when 10 will do just fine.)
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imneuromancer · Post by **imneuromancer** » Thu May 07, 2009 4:58 pm

serleran wrote:
Actually, this is somewhat like what I was doing for Ruins and Radiation (tm), only, there are no levels, so you use XP to purchase the modifier. But, in very small doses, since XP awards are greatly reduced to make it simpler mathematically (that is, there really is no reason to award 1000 XP when 10 will do just fine.)

Dude, I would say just the opposite! No reason to use 10 XP when 10,000,000 will do!

I mean, what sounds better to players:

"You did a great job! you get 1.3 experience points for killing Cryonex!"

or

"You did a great job, you get 65,395,452,344 experience points for killing that stirge!!"

Say what you will about World of Warcraft, but reward inflation is a great way to keep people pressing the button in the Skinner box!

/irony

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu May 07, 2009 5:11 pm

Yes, except for one thing: when they look at the "costs" and see something like "+1 to Strength rolls: 10 billion XP" they think "I will never have that many.. let's reduce it to 1,000" and then the system folds because people did not understand why the rewards were also low.
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Maliki · Post by **Maliki** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:05 pm

Looks like a workable system, at first glance I like it. Next campaign I may give this a try.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:08 pm

I used to think there were problems with primes, but after having games getting into higher levels (17th now) I have either gotten used to it, or the system simply works well despite what I used to think.

Plus, all the complaints I have seen come from a numbers perspective. They can easily see how a Prime effects their character, but don't put in the effort to see how their dwarf/elf/halfling/gnome racial modifiers numerically help their PC. It may not be a "perfect" balancing of the races, but its turning out to be the best I have seen in D&D.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu May 07, 2009 11:16 pm

imneuromancer wrote:
Actually, it is 4 (or 5 for humans) at first level. one (or 2) points per level after that.

You're correct - I misread. My apologies. I'd go 3 at 1st, then 1/level, personally.

Quote:
The ceiling of 6 points is so that you don't get someone putting all of their points in one attribute. So no matter how many points you have, you can only put 6 points in DEX, for example. This would encourage players to spread around their points.

This makes pretty good sense, and it's something I agree with. It looks like by 10th level, characters would have two primes worth of points using my suggestion above. Hmm..maybe it would be a better idea to give out more points.

Quote:
As to record keeping, I think it would add only a trivial amount, but would get rid of arguments #2 and #4 which ADD to record keeping when primes/abilities/class levels are (highly) situationally applied. The more you can keep the bonuses and their application uniform (but allow flexibility in how you GOT those bonuses) the easier the game will be but the more each character can be unique (without overdoing it, old-skool style!).

I was only considering it from a CK's standpoint of keeping track of where everyone has their points distributed and such. It would seem easier for a CK to know the primes of his players, but you're probably right - it wouldn't be too much more to keep track of.

Treebore wrote:
I used to think there were problems with primes, but after having games getting into higher levels (17th now) I have either gotten used to it, or the system simply works well despite what I used to think.

What problems did you think you were seeing at earlier levels, Tree?

Treebore wrote:
Plus, all the complaints I have seen come from a numbers perspective. They can easily see how a Prime effects their character, but don't put in the effort to see how their dwarf/elf/halfling/gnome racial modifiers numerically help their PC. It may not be a "perfect" balancing of the races, but its turning out to be the best I have seen in D&D.

I so agree with you on this. I had this come up in my game early on. Someone was playing a dwarf and was a little miffed at the humans getting the extra prime. My reply was, "how can you not lok at all the dwarf racial abilities and not think it's fair?"
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu May 07, 2009 11:32 pm

My concerns were the same brought up many times before and in this very thread. I no longer see humans having a third Prime as being too big an advantage as to be unfair or broken. IF they player really, truly thinks it unfair or broken, then play a human. Otherwise learn to appreciate how helpful all those little bonus, saves versus sleep/charm effects, seeing in dark conditions, etc... can and do make a big difference. Often bigger than that extra single Prime will create.

I used to also have the issues others have brought up about saves, Prime versus non Prime. However it fixed the problem I have had with every single edition of D&D. In my high level C&C game, due to the scaling of saves with level combined with non/Prime saves, my high level players are still sweating their saving throws, rather than saying, "Oh I can make that!" they say, "Oh crap! I have to roll a save? Its non prime! Uh oh!!" \

Then I watch the Vegas effect take place, they start sweating, adrenaline kicks up, apprehension sets in. Then they roll to see if they got 7's or snake eyes, and have the exact same reaction, big release of excited adrenaline, or big let down of disappointment.

So I stick with the Prime system no matter how often players complain. Its their fear of their PC dying. I like that fear, and I want them to keep it.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri May 08, 2009 3:48 am

Treebore wrote:
IF they player really, truly thinks it unfair or broken, then play a human. Otherwise learn to appreciate how helpful all those little bonus, saves versus sleep/charm effects, seeing in dark conditions, etc... can and do make a big difference. Often bigger than that extra single Prime will create.

Yeah, my players used to think the 3rd prime was amazing cool and gave them an edge. Till they realized the dwarf PC wasn't suffering any penalty to his attacks every single round due to poor lighting when dungeon crawling.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri May 08, 2009 10:51 am

Treebore wrote:
My concerns were the same brought up many times before and in this very thread. I no longer see humans having a third Prime as being too big an advantage as to be unfair or broken. IF they player really, truly thinks it unfair or broken, then play a human. Otherwise learn to appreciate how helpful all those little bonus, saves versus sleep/charm effects, seeing in dark conditions, etc... can and do make a big difference. Often bigger than that extra single Prime will create.

I used to also have the issues others have brought up about saves, Prime versus non Prime. However it fixed the problem I have had with every single edition of D&D. In my high level C&C game, due to the scaling of saves with level combined with non/Prime saves, my high level players are still sweating their saving throws, rather than saying, "Oh I can make that!" they say, "Oh crap! I have to roll a save? Its non prime! Uh oh!!" \

Then I watch the Vegas effect take place, they start sweating, adrenaline kicks up, apprehension sets in. Then they roll to see if they got 7's or snake eyes, and have the exact same reaction, big release of excited adrenaline, or big let down of disappointment.

So I stick with the Prime system no matter how often players complain. Its their fear of their PC dying. I like that fear, and I want them to keep it.

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, my players used to think the 3rd prime was amazing cool and gave them an edge. Till they realized the dwarf PC wasn't suffering any penalty to his attacks every single round due to poor lighting when dungeon crawling.

You guys sum up my feelings pretty well on this. Not to take anything away from imneuromancer's system (which I feel would work quite well), I think I'm at the point that after mulling it over and over and over that I've decided to stick with the system as is. I think it is balanced very well. As I said before a few times, I had a particular player who had issue with this. After a while, I think the realized that while the human does have an advantage mechanically, this isn't necessarily a game of numbers and mechanics (as 3e is/was) and the racial benefits are nothing to be sneezed at.
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imneuromancer · Post by **imneuromancer** » Fri May 08, 2009 12:48 pm

Serleran: I was kidding. I hate number inflation, too.
Lord Dynal, etc: I agree that the system as it stands works well. It probably works better than any adjustment I have suggested. I just like thought experiments and such that give insight into how the system elements interact.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:05 pm

It's always fun to play with the mechanics. I'm quite happy with the system as-is but that in no way is meant to diminish imneuromancer's efforts. Demi-humans in C&C kick some ass but finally there is a reason to play a human in this game compared to other similar system incarnations IMO.

M
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Wulfgarn · Post by **Wulfgarn** » Fri May 08, 2009 4:41 pm

Hmmmmm---

Being able to see in the dark is the Largest advantage ever-

I think that if the CK plays the game with enough emphasis on wheres your light source - or here is a good one- Try sneaking in a dungeon holding a torch....

the demi-human pulls its own weight.

I dtill have trouble with the 18 base for non Primes but I deal with it.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri May 08, 2009 5:09 pm

imneuromancer wrote:
Lord Dynal, etc: I agree that the system as it stands works well. It probably works better than any adjustment I have suggested. I just like thought experiments and such that give insight into how the system elements interact.

Exactly. I don't want to come off as knocking you or your system. I agree with what you and mort said - playing with the system is great fun. And sometimes we come across something that ends up working quite well. That's the great thing about this game.
So if I came off like I was knocking you, I apologize.
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imneuromancer · Post by **imneuromancer** » Fri May 08, 2009 6:08 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
So if I came off like I was knocking you, I apologize.

A little story: I grew up in Lexington, KY and then moved to Philadelphia, PA. I sometimes go see friends and family in Lexington. You know what the worst part of Lexington, KY is? Driving. You know why?

'Cause people are too d*** nice in Lex!

I've had people that CLEARLY had the right of way wave me on. Then I would wave them on in an attempt to let them know that they have the right of way... after this goes on for a minute or two, one finally gets frustrated and just GOES, by Golly!

It takes twice as long to drive in Lex than in Philly because people are too nice!! People there are TRYING to be nice, which just slows everyone down.

So, to answer you question, Lord Dynel, posting ideas to this forum is just for kicking around ideas. Some ideas are interesting but don't make good game mechanics. Some are actually good ideas. Some ideas are just bad. There is no reason to apologize. While refreshing that an anonymous Internet forum would have people that *shock* care about each others' feelings, it is OK to 'knock' another persons' idea in a constructive way
In summary: no worries!!

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri May 08, 2009 7:37 pm

Thanks, hoss. I was hoping that I wasn't offending or anything.

I can't help being a little cautious, sometimes. I know this is the internet, and it's the birthplace of "opinionated anonymitiy" but I still like to be courteous. I still try to talk to people the way I'd do so face-to-face. There was a guy here a while back (I think his name was MacLeod or something to that effect). He threw a lot of ideas out and I was at odds with some (or many) of them. Well, he just up and stopped posting one day, after posting pretty heavily in his short time here.

I think about that from time to time and wonder (without sounding to vain ) if I had anything to do with him not posting here anymore. Then I try to remind myself about being courteous to others. I know, it sounds a little fruity...sorry!

The short of it is that I'm glad I didn't offend you, imneuromancer!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri May 08, 2009 8:03 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
Thanks, hoss. I was hoping that I wasn't offending or anything.

I can't help being a little cautious, sometimes. I know this is the internet, and it's the birthplace of "opinionated anonymitiy" but I still like to be courteous. I still try to talk to people the way I'd do so face-to-face. There was a guy here a while back (I think his name was MacLeod or something to that effect). He threw a lot of ideas out and I was at odds with some (or many) of them. Well, he just up and stopped posting one day, after posting pretty heavily in his short time here.

I think about that from time to time and wonder (without sounding to vain ) if I had anything to do with him not posting here anymore. Then I try to remind myself about being courteous to others. I know, it sounds a little fruity...sorry!

The short of it is that I'm glad I didn't offend you, imneuromancer!

Don't worry LD, we are learning to hate you for honest and base reasons, such as jealousy over you having all those great RPG finds lately.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri May 08, 2009 8:07 pm

Treebore wrote:
Don't worry LD, we are learning to hate you for honest and base reasons, such as jealousy over you having all those great RPG finds lately.

Hehe. Okay, at least my character isn't in question.
I can live with the envy.
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MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Mon May 11, 2009 9:21 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
I think about that from time to time and wonder if I had anything to do with him not posting here anymore.

I've been lurking around primarily. I have to admit though, y'all have a way of stifling creativity which was the primary reason I began posting here. It seems to be that way across the 'net in general though... I rarely see folks supporting somebody's ideas. Instead it is usually not-so-constructive criticism and complaints. I understand the sentiment though... You have a system in your hands which you want to believe needs very little alterations. Certainly no mere amateur is going have an idea worth any merit.

Oh well. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to try and mod C&C too much right now anyways... Not until I see the CKG first at least.
I'm waiting for that mythical 4-book C&C bundle to come out. Something I use to whine about a lot 'round here back in the day.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon May 11, 2009 10:16 pm

MacLeod wrote:
I've been lurking around primarily. I have to admit though, y'all have a way of stifling creativity which was the primary reason I began posting here. It seems to be that way across the 'net in general though... I rarely see folks supporting somebody's ideas. Instead it is usually not-so-constructive criticism and complaints. I understand the sentiment though... You have a system in your hands which you want to believe needs very little alterations. Certainly no mere amateur is going have an idea worth any merit.

Oh well. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to try and mod C&C too much right now anyways... Not until I see the CKG first at least.
I'm waiting for that mythical 4-book C&C bundle to come out. Something I use to whine about a lot 'round here back in the day.

Good to see ya, hoss!
I don't know about "stifling creativity" - there are many posts I've made where I lend my support (even if it's as simple as a "good job") even if I don't necessarily like the idea (like this very one - imneuromancer did a bang up job, but I wouldn't personally use it). I guess it just depends on the subject matter - but I try to be a straight-shooter, at the very least.

My apologies if I, or anyone else here, ever seemed to stifle any ideas you had brought up. Critique, yes. I sure do a heck of a lot of that when the mood strikes. But again, my apologies if I ever tried to shut down an idea you had.
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MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Mon May 11, 2009 11:53 pm

I wasn't trying to demean you in particular, Dynel. Just an overall pattern to be noticed in the attitudes of people. I experience it here at home with my group as well. They don't trust new ideas (neanderthals!!!) so I'm the only one amongst them willing to try anything different. Gives me a mean disposition I guess. x_x
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue May 12, 2009 11:21 am

MacLeod wrote:
I wasn't trying to demean you in particular, Dynel. Just an overall pattern to be noticed in the attitudes of people. I experience it here at home with my group as well. They don't trust new ideas (neanderthals!!!) so I'm the only one amongst them willing to try anything different. Gives me a mean disposition I guess. x_x

Oh no, I wasn't taking offense or anything. I was just giving my viewpoint on things.

I'm sure you know, but I'll say it anyway - sometimes you got to "ease" people into different things in gaming. The more radical (to them, not to you) the more easing you need to do. I know with my group it's that way. I've began running a "Generic Class" 3.5 game (to break in two new-to-my-table players before I break them into CnC). Well, a few folks in the core group kind of bucked the idea, and one in particular almost "took a break" from gaming because of it. He didn't like the system for whatever reason and it took a lot of reassurance to get him to give it a try. So far he's okay, but I'm expecting a flare-up before too long.

The point of my rambling is sometimes you got to be subtle with new ideas and I feel as long as the change is gradual it will be less resisted. The frog in the boiling water, if you will.
I'm sure you know all of this, but I felt like saying it.
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MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Tue May 12, 2009 5:23 pm

For me it is just hard to grasp their frame of mind... How can't these people be excited about new ideas? Aren't they bored with doing things the same way these last few years??? Bah, oh well, at least I have them playing E6 now. x_x

Eoris, Spellbound Kingdoms and, of course, C&C are all next on the list.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue May 12, 2009 6:19 pm

MacLeod wrote:
I wasn't trying to demean you in particular, Dynel. Just an overall pattern to be noticed in the attitudes of people. I experience it here at home with my group as well. They don't trust new ideas (neanderthals!!!) so I'm the only one amongst them willing to try anything different. Gives me a mean disposition I guess. x_x

*chuckles* Funny enough, I've had the same problem. But then again, being an artist, I guess I'm not bound by convention, or habitual social constructs as much as the rest of homo-habitulous .
As far as a simple way to introduce granularity for the primes system there are two simple methods. One, don't have any primes fixed as per class. Two, instead of each ability going up +1 per level, instead, treat it as a 'pool' of points that can be distributed as the player sees fit.

For example, the rogue has 9 abilities, so that's 9 points per level. Put the points in the abilities the character uses most, or use it to bolster non prime abilities. The over all progression is the same as per +'s, but the numbers aren't so static, and helps to have each character just a little different.

One could impose a limit of the attribute mod of a particular ability as per how many points one could place per level for those who like limits.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue May 12, 2009 6:24 pm

You can also divide the XP requirement for the class by the number of class abilities possessed and allow the expenditure of that amount to improve any specific ability by +1, or they can "store it up" and increase all simultaneously. You would need to determine the "costs" for BtH progression based on the fighter, however, so you do not get thieves who outshine fighters simply because they can spend XP faster.

There are numerous ways to handle a Prime-less SIEGE, since the underlying factor is not the SIEGE Engine, per se, but being level - attribute based.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue May 12, 2009 11:49 pm

MacLeod wrote:
For me it is just hard to grasp their frame of mind... How can't these people be excited about new ideas? Aren't they bored with doing things the same way these last few years??? Bah, oh well, at least I have them playing E6 now. x_x

Eoris, Spellbound Kingdoms and, of course, C&C are all next on the list.

Some people like the same ol' same ol'. Familarity breeds content, and all that jazz. As long as they're having fun, that's what matters. Of course, you having fun, too would be good. But with E6 and the other games you have listed, it sounds like you're moving them in the right direction.

gideon_thorne wrote:
But then again, being an artist, I guess I'm not bound by convention, or habitual social constructs as much as the rest of homo-habitulous .

C'mon, man! You make it sound like being an artist is necessay to being able to do things unconventionally!

Just messin' with ya, hoss.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue May 12, 2009 11:53 pm

Quote:
But then again, being an artist, I guess I'm not bound by convention, or habitual social constructs

Yeah, since we all know this is not the very stereotype of the "artiste." Nope, definitely don't fit the mold someone else ascribed to you... not at all.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Tue May 12, 2009 11:58 pm

The unity is there to see, a mass of non-conformity.

Heh. I'm sitting here jamming out to Subhumans and thought that line was funny.